Fixing the date of Easter

[Hope]

Hope, if I said that 2/6 was half-a-crown you would disagree purely because it was me that said it!

I disagreed with you simply because you were making an incorrect statement.

You are just so obvious! But then acting as someone else's back-up in attacking me at every opportunity is also bloody obvious.

If I'm that obvious, why do you make the erroneous comments that mean I have to be so obvious?

[floo]

Floo this is probably the least correct statement you've ever made.  Historians know that Christ was crucified immediately before Passover.  Which year, and therefore exactly which date that was, is actually irrelevant.  The event is tied to the date of Passover, which is a moveable feast.  This is also where Matt's sarcastic comment is shown to be so daft - Easter isn't tied to a 'Christian' event, but to a Jewish one.

It is NOT a historical FACT that Jesus was crucified, just a belief, which may, or may not, have happened.  However, as the date of Easter can vary so much surely it is far better to fix it. Those who want to celebrate it as a religious event can still do so on the day it is fixed.

[Hope]

Really Hope!

It was Ad_O who said it had to remain moveable because it was fixed at Passover - read what I said - I said his religious beliefs not that the belief was Christian!

And I pointed out that this wasn't a matter of what ad-o believes but one of historical, astronomical fact.

[Hope]

It is NOT a historical FACT that Jesus was crucified, just a belief, which may, or may not, have happened.  However, as the date of Easter can vary so much surely it is far better to fix it. Those who want to celebrate it as a religious event can still do so on the day it is fixed.

Sorry to disappoint you, Floo, the area of belief is the resurrection.  The crucifixion is not.

[floo]

Sorry to disappoint you, Floo, the area of belief is the resurrection.  The crucifixion is not.

Which is highly unlikely to have actually happened, as it simply isn't credible!

[jeremyp]

Historians know that Christ was crucified immediately before Passover.  Which year, and therefore exactly which date that was, is actually irrelevant.  The event is tied to the date of Passover, which is a moveable feast. 

Well historians know the gospels say that although even they do not agree on which day Jesus was crucified.

This is also where Matt's sarcastic comment is shown to be so daft - Easter isn't tied to a 'Christian' event, but to a Jewish one.

Wrong again Hope.

Yes, it was originally, but with typical arrogance, Christians at the First Council of Nicea decided that the Jews don't know when Passover is and Christians don't all agree when it is even now.

[Hope]

Well historians know the gospels say that although even they do not agree on which day Jesus was crucified.

Historians do know which day he was crucified - just that some forget that Jews treat the timing of the start and finish of a day differently to you and I.

Yes, it was originally, but with typical arrogance, Christians at the First Council of Nicea decided that the Jews don't know when Passover is and Christians don't all agree when it is even now.

If that is the case, why is Easter still tied to the date of Passover.  Regarding the difference in the dates of some celebrations, you need to remember that some people live on a different calendar (even calendars) to us here in the West.

[Hope]

Which is highly unlikely to have actually happened, as it simply isn't credible!

I suppose it depends on what one regards as 'credible'.  2350 or so years ago, the idea that an army could not only travel from Greece to the borders of what we now call India but win a series of victories on the way would have been regarded as non-credible; 2000 or so years ago, moving an army from Carthage to Italy via the Alps was regarded as non-credible.  Both occurred.  So what you regard as non-credible doesn't mean that something actually isn't credible.

[Shaker]

I suppose it depends on what one regards as 'credible'.  2350 or so years ago, the idea that an army could not only travel from Greece to the borders of what we now call India but win a series of victories on the way would have been regarded as non-credible; 2000 or so years ago, moving an army from Carthage to Rome via the Alps was regarded as non-credible.  Both occurred.  So what you regard as non-credible doesn't mean that something actually isn't credible.

Both examples are explicable entirely and squarely within a naturalistic framework of matter-energy. Your guy-in-the-sky isn't. And we know that you can't provide an equivalent methodology for evaluating your set of claims, because everybody's had a go at asking for that and got the Beethoven's ear and Nelson's eye treatment.

[Aruntraveller]

I suppose it depends on what one regards as 'credible'.  2350 or so years ago, the idea that an army could not only travel from Greece to the borders of what we now call India but win a series of victories on the way would have been regarded as non-credible; 2000 or so years ago, moving an army from Carthage to Italy via the Alps was regarded as non-credible.  Both occurred.  So what you regard as non-credible doesn't mean that something actually isn't credible.

Just checking but you do know the difference between "non-credible" and "unlikely" don't you?

[Shaker]

Just checking but you do know the difference between "non-credible" and "unlikely" don't you?

He certainly doesn't know the difference between "extraordinary humans making extraordinarily strenuous efforts to achieve a specific goal" and "magic," that's for sure.

[Spud]

Even so, if it were say the second full week in every April, plus a PH on the following Monday, why would that be a problem - it might be more convenient since school terms wouldn't vary just because of lunar phases.

Why not fix the school holidays and keep the Easter weekend variable, with a bank holiday?

[ProfessorDavey]

Sorry to disappoint you, Floo, the area of belief is the resurrection.  The crucifixion is not.

Yes it is - we have precious little evidence to support the crucifixion too. Sure it is much more inherently believable, but we are still relying on partial (rather than impartial) accounts written decades after the event.

I am happy to believe that the crucifixion occurred but there isn't anything like definitive evidence.

[ProfessorDavey]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/12102278/Easter-date-to-be-fixed-within-next-five-to-10-years.html

I think it is daft that the date of Easter hasn't been fixed before now. Christmas is a fixed date even though it is highly unlikely Jesus was born on that date.

Some schools are already fixing their Spring terms dates without taking Easter into consideration, which seems sensible.

Good idea.

The movable nature of Easter is a nightmare for schools and universities that need to sort terms. This year our current semester has two days missing from it (a Friday and a Monday) because Easter is early and you cannot fit a 12 week semester between early January and Easter.

AOs point about knowing well in advance isn't actually the point - it doesn't matter how far in advance you know it is still a pain, and you still can't fit in a 12 week semester between early January and Easter when is falls early as is the case this year.

[Shaker]

Yes it is - we have precious little evidence to support the crucifixion too. Sure it is much more inherently believable, but we are still relying on partial (rather than impartial) accounts written decades after the event.

I am happy to believe that the crucifixion occurred but there isn't anything like definitive evidence.

Indeed. There's a great deal of good evidence that crucifixion has been practised - one more crucifixion added to the list is nothing. There has never once, anywhere, ever, been a single reliable, demonstrated case of an actually dead person (as opposed to a person suffering from any one of a number of death-mimicking states - there are lots of those) coming back to life. So we proportion our stance about the world to the available evidence, if we are wise and cautious and wish to avoid making preposterous claims.

[ProfessorDavey]

Why not fix the school holidays and keep the Easter weekend variable, with a bank holiday?

That's what a lot of schools are doing this year - so there is a bank holiday weekend then back to school for a few days then off again for the 'Easter' holiday.

But it doesn't help - particularly at Universities where module timetables are often scheduled on a single day of the week (or just two) - so if that day happens to be a Friday or Monday you end up losing a whole week of contact time for students and have to cram the material into 11 weeks rather than 12, which doesn't really work as the module syllabus is based on 12 weeks - and students are now contractually able to expect their full contact hours.

[Gordon]

Why not fix the school holidays and keep the Easter weekend variable, with a bank holiday?

Why not just fix a standard national spring holiday week each April so as to allow full educational terms and so that people and employers can plan leave arrangements around the same calendar weeks each year a (say 2nd or 3rd full week each April) and leave Christians to sort out their own special days which they can take time off for if they must.

For example this year Easter is at the end of March, which is early weather-wise, whereas in 2017 it is a full 3 weeks later in mid-April: this is plain daft, and the mid-April in 2017 is more likely to produce better spring holiday weather than this year compared to this year but we are stuck with late-March due to 'tradition': seems to me that the tail is wagging the dog!

Seems odd to me that the dates for a spring holiday for society in general (e.g. the rest of us) need to be locked into variable religious special days that holiday-wise just involve a long Friday- Monday weekend, so if a spring holiday is seen as a 'good thing' then I can't see that this needs to be dictated by Christian traditions that are variable because it was decided centuries ago to follow a lunar cycle. I'd say we should have a standard 'spring week' that fits with education timetables and that Christians should just do their own thing whenever it suits them.
 

[Rhiannon]

My local education authority has had a fixed spring break for ten years or more. It works fine.

[Spud]

Ironically, the event that Easter commemorates, the institution of the new covenant, made the old covenant with its lunar-calendar feasts and holy convocations (eg first day of passover) obsolete (Hebrews 8-9). So there is no theological reason to have any public holidays at Easter. However it would still be useful from a Christian pov to commemorate the events of Easter symbolically at the time of passover, with a communion service on the Thursday evening.

[Gordon]

Ironically, the event that Easter commemorates, the institution of the new covenant, made the old covenant with its lunar-calendar feasts and holy convocations (eg first day of passover) obsolete (Hebrews 8-9). So there is no theological reason to have any public holidays at Easter. However it would still be useful from a Christian pov to commemorate the events of Easter symbolically at the time of passover, with a communion service on the Thursday evening.

Well you guys sort out your special long-weekend, starting on a Thursday evening, and do your thing - but lets have the national Public Holidays at a time in the year when it is more Spring and less Winter.

[jeremyp]

Historians do know which day he was crucified - just that some forget that Jews treat the timing of the start and finish of a day differently to you and I.

It's the gospels that don't agree on the day not historians. The synoptics claim Jesus was crucified on the first day of Passover and John claims Jesus was crucified on the eve of Passover.

If that is the case, why is Easter still tied to the date of Passover.

You would look less like a fool if you checked your facts.

Easter this year is on March 27th (or May 1st if you re an Eastern Orthodoxer). Passover is April 22nd to April 30th. Amazingly, this year, Ad O's crowd have got the date more accurately than your lot.

Easter is not tied to the date of Passover and hasn't been since almost the beginning.

[Bubbles]

According to Floos link

The date of Easter calculated through a complicated synthesis of mathematics, astronomy and theology considered baffling to most people.
It is linked to the vernal - or spring - equinox and falls close to the Jewish Passover festival.

It appears to be the religious taking a lead in this

http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2016/jan/15/easter-justin-welby-christian-attempt-fix-date

According to that link it involves discussions with Eastern and Western christian churches.


Ad o might find its a decision taken for him.

[Bubbles]

Don't like it? Move out of Europe. Europe is Christian.

Oh dear!

What sort of fascists have you been mixing with?

It shows in your posts, just lately.



🌹

[Bubbles]

A Simple Formula, Complicated Interpretations
The formula for Easter—"The first Sunday after the first full moon on or after the vernal equinox"—is identical for both Western and Orthodox Easters, but the churches base the dates on different calendars: Western churches use the Gregorian calendar, the standard calendar for much of the world, and Orthodox churches use the older, Julian calendar.

That much is straightforward. But actually calculating these dates involves a bewildering array of ecclesiastical moons and paschal full moons, the astronomical equinox, and the fixed equinox— and that's in addition to the two different calendar systems.

When Is a Full Moon Full?
The two churches vary on the definition of the vernal equinox and the full moon. The Eastern Church sets the date of Easter according to the actual, astronomical full moon and the actual equinox as observed along the meridian of Jerusalem, site of the Crucifixion and Resurrection.

Relation to Passover
The Eastern Orthodox Church also applies the formula so that Easter always falls after Passover, since the Crucifixion and Resurrection of Christ took place after he entered Jerusalem to celebrate Passover. In the Western Church, Easter sometimes precedes Passover by weeks.

Why One Faith and Two Easters?
The Western church does not use the actual, or astronomically correct date for the vernal equinox, but a fixed date (March 21). And by full moon it does not mean the astronomical full moon but the "ecclesiastical moon," which is based on tables created by the church. These constructs allow the date of Easter to be calculated in advance rather than determined by actual astronomical observances, which are naturally less predictable.

This division between the Eastern and Western Churches has no strong theological basis, but neither is it simply a technical skirmish. As the World Council of Churches has noted, much of Orthodox Christianity is located in the Middle East, where it has frequently been the minority religion, and in Eastern Europe, where until recently it faced hostility from communist governments.

The emphasis on honoring tradition and maintaining an intact religious identity was therefore crucial. Seen in this context, changing the rules governing its most important religious holiday chisels away at the foundations of an already beleaguered religious heritage.

Reconciling East and West
A meeting organized by the Council of World Churches (in Aleppo, Syria, March 5–10, 1997) proposed a solution thought to be favorable to both East and West: both methods of calculating the equinox and the paschal full moon would be replaced with the most advanced astronomically accurate calculations available, using the meridian of Jerusalem as the point of measure. Since that meeting, however, no further progress has been made and the problem remains.

Pinning Down A Movable Holiday
Since the beginning of the 20th century, a proposal to change Easter to a fixed holiday rather than a movable one has been widely circulated, and in 1963 the Second Vatican Council agreed, provided a consensus could be reached among Christian churches. The second Sunday in April has been suggested as the most likely date.


http://www.infoplease.com/spot/easter1.html

A nice warm Easter then 🌹🍷

[Spud]

That's what a lot of schools are doing this year - so there is a bank holiday weekend then back to school for a few days then off again for the 'Easter' holiday.

But it doesn't help - particularly at Universities where module timetables are often scheduled on a single day of the week (or just two) - so if that day happens to be a Friday or Monday you end up losing a whole week of contact time for students and have to cram the material into 11 weeks rather than 12, which doesn't really work as the module syllabus is based on 12 weeks - and students are now contractually able to expect their full contact hours.

So the key date here is the vernal equinox, on 20 March (give or take 1 day). Easter is calculated to be at the first full moon after this equinox, this year being on 23 March, making Easter almost as early as it can be.

This year term started on Monday 4 January, and it ends on Thursday 24th March, which is 12 weeks minus a day - the last Friday. So I see what you mean for the modules you mention - they will miss Friday 25 March. For convenience then, Easter Sunday could be fixed at the second sunday after the Spring equinox so that term can start after the new year and run the full twelve weeks?

Perhaps a better way would be to celebrate new year on 21 December so that term would start earlier and there would be a full twelve weeks before the spring equinox?