Fixing the date of Easter

[Gordon]

Perhaps a better way would be to celebrate new year on 21 December so that term would start earlier and there would be a full twelve weeks before the spring equinox?

Or we just have a spring holiday week in mid-April and you Christians can do your Easter thing whenever it suits you without affecting arrangements for a spring holiday for the rest of us.

[Hope]

It's the gospels that don't agree on the day not historians. The synoptics claim Jesus was crucified on the first day of Passover and John claims Jesus was crucified on the eve of Passover.

You would look less like a fool if you checked your facts.

Perhaps you would also benefit from checking your facts.  Both Matthew and Mark state that the crucifixion took place the on a "preparation day" - the day before the Sabbath.  Luke doesn't state a specific day, but uses a similar timeline.  John says the same.  One then has to take into account the fact that not only was Passover a festival in its own right, it was also a 'Preparation Day' for the very important Jewish holy day that was the first day of the 'Feast of Unleavened Bread'.  The Sabbath that is referred to in the gospels is this second holy day.  What is more, the use of 'Sabbath' in this context doesn't necessarily imply that it fell on a Saturday (as we would now call it).  According to the Hebrew Calendar, Passover can fall on a Monday, Wednesday, Friday or a "Saturday".

[Hope]

Or we just have a spring holiday week in mid-April and you Christians can do your Easter thing whenever it suits you without affecting arrangements for a spring holiday for the rest of us.

Ironically, rather than trying to fix Easter, this would be a far more sensible idea and one I've actually proposed several times over the years.

[Spud]

Or we just have a spring holiday week in mid-April and you Christians can do your Easter thing whenever it suits you without affecting arrangements for a spring holiday for the rest of us.

Well the thing is, the Passover feast, at which the resurrection happened, was tied to the ripening of the corn; it was a universal feast in the sense that it was linked with food. Everybody ate unleavened bread for a week, too, another reason why the festival can apply to everybody.

[ad_orientem]

Or we just have a spring holiday week in mid-April and you Christians can do your Easter thing whenever it suits you without affecting arrangements for a spring holiday for the rest of us.

Again, seeing as you can predictvthe dates for Easter for about a million years and more what difficulties does a movable Easter present arranging holidays? None as faras I can see.

[ProfessorDavey]

Again, seeing as you can predictvthe dates for Easter for about a million years and more what difficulties does a movable Easter present arranging holidays? None as faras I can see.

See above - being able to predict the date isn't the issue. It is being able to effectively deal with the issue when you are trying to ram a semester's syllabus designed for a 12 week semester into 11 weeks. With students paying top dollar and wanting the contact hours they expect.

[ProfessorDavey]

I do find the notion of some of the most fervent christians to desperately hold on to the rather bizarre calculation for the date of Easter rather odd. Specifically as its calculation is about as pagan as you can get - linking both to the equinox and also the full moon. There aren't many other element of paganism that the likes of AO seem to be very keen on, so why the first Sunday (not named after the sun, after the first full moon (highly pagan - not much else in christianity seems to link to lunar cycles) after the equinox (one of the most pagan points in the calendar).

But hey I guess as Easter is actually named after a pagan deity this is all well and good.

[Gordon]

Again, seeing as you can predictvthe dates for Easter for about a million years and more what difficulties does a movable Easter present arranging holidays? None as faras I can see.

Knowing the lunar cycle isn't the problem though.

The problem is arranging a general holiday that varies between late March (this year) and mid-April (next year) simply due to religious tradition, where the tradition doesn't involve a fixed date anyway. Separate the two and we get a general holiday that occurs, say, during the 2nd or 3rd week in April each year and Christians can their do their Easter stuff whenever it suits them and without impacting on the rest of us.

[Gordon]

Well the thing is, the Passover feast, at which the resurrection happened, was tied to the ripening of the corn; it was a universal feast in the sense that it was linked with food. Everybody ate unleavened bread for a week, too, another reason why the festival can apply to everybody.

Is that still the case though: do you guys check for the ripening of the corn, does this happen everywhere at the same time and does everyone still eat unleavened bread?

I suspect the answers are no, no and no - so this approach isn't valid globally today even if it was once valid in the middle-east in antiquity.

[ad_orientem]

Knowing the lunar cycle isn't the problem though.

The problem is arranging a general holiday that varies between late March (this year) and mid-April (next year) simply due to religious tradition, where the tradition doesn't involve a fixed date anyway. Separate the two and we get a general holiday that occurs, say, during the 2nd or 3rd week in April each year and Christians can their do their Easter stuff whenever it suits them and without impacting on the rest of us.

Deperation to de-Christianise, that's what it is.

[ProfessorDavey]

Deperation to de-Christianise, that's what it is.

If the major christian denominations agree to fix the date how is this de-christianising it AO.

And also how on earth is the original determination - involving full moons and equinoxes in any way christian? If anything it is much more jewish (linked to passover) or pagan (probably originally).

Again you are showing a profound lack of perspective and your usual inability to see anything beyond christianity.

[ad_orientem]

I do find the notion of some of the most fervent christians to desperately hold on to the rather bizarre calculation for the date of Easter rather odd. Specifically as its calculation is about as pagan as you can get - linking both to the equinox and also the full moon. There aren't many other element of paganism that the likes of AO seem to be very keen on, so why the first Sunday (not named after the sun, after the first full moon (highly pagan - not much else in christianity seems to link to lunar cycles) after the equinox (one of the most pagan points in the calendar).

But hey I guess as Easter is actually named after a pagan deity this is all well and good.

We shouldn't be surprised that feasts are tied with the cosmos, for God is the creator of the cosmos and we see the creator in that. The pagans worshipped that which they didn't know, creation (idol worship) instead of the creator.

[ad_orientem]

If the major christian denominations agree to fix the date how is this de-christianising it AO.

And also how on earth is the original determination - involving full moons and equinoxes in any way christian? If anything it is much more jewish (linked to passover) or pagan (probably originally).

Again you are showing a profound lack of perspective and your usual inability to see anything beyond christianity.

Yes, desperation to de-Christianise all our public holidays. Easter is linked to the Passover because the Passover prefigures Easter and it is also when our Lord died and tose again. Neither can the Church change that for it would contradict the decision of the holy council at Nicaea.

[Gordon]

Deperation to de-Christianise, that's what it is.

Not really, since for those of us who aren't Christians it really is just a spring holiday that occurs at varia.ble times - but for reasons of religious traditions that aren't relevant to non-Christians.

Ideally we should separate two: the spring holiday and the religious holiday, so you guys can do your Easter without imposing holiday dates on everyone else. Nobody is preventing Christians from following their traditions, but these traditions shouldn't be binding on the rest of us.

[ProfessorDavey]

We shouldn't be surprised that feasts are tied with the cosmos, for God is the creator of the cosmos and we see the creator in that. The pagans worshipped that which they didn't know, creation (idol worship) instead of the creator.

Thanks for accepting that the dating of Easter is effectively pagan.

And of course christians too worship that which they didn't know - the classic god of the gaps. Largely from the enlightenment onward (although not entirely and not in every place) people began to accept that it was OK not to know stuff, and not to make things up to fill those gaps in knowledge. And once that was accepted the notion that we should try, through rational means, to actually understand the world and beyond, rather than just guessing, we have begun to make progress.

[ProfessorDavey]

Not really, since for those of us who aren't Christians it really is just a spring holiday

And so it should be as it is called Easter (at least in the UK) - which has nothing to do with christianity and everything to do with celebrating the Spring.

Bede, when christianity was first doing to Britain, clearly differentiated the pagan festival of Easter, from the christian festival of Paschal. We don't celebrate Paschal here - we celebrate Easter.

[ad_orientem]

Not really, since for those of us who aren't Christians it really is just a spring holiday that occurs at varia.ble times - but for reasons of religious traditions that aren't relevant to non-Christians.

Ideally we should separate two: the spring holiday and the religious holiday, so you guys can do your Easter without imposing holiday dates on everyone else. Nobody is preventing Christians from following their traditions, but these traditions shouldn't be binding on the rest of us.

What fo mean? That Christians can have their publuc holiday at Easter and atheist at another time? Probably not. It'll mean Christians have to take unpaid leave. Like it or not, Christianity is part of Europe's heritage.

[ad_orientem]

And so it should be as it is called Easter (at least in the UK) - which has nothing to do with christianity and everything to do with celebrating the Spring.

Bede, when christianity was first doing to Britain, clearly differentiated the pagan festival of Easter, from the christian festival of Paschal. We don't celebrate Paschal here - we celebrate Easter.

You're getting hung up on names. Easter today is the Pasch.

[Gordon]

Yes, desperation to de-Christianise all our public holidays. Easter is linked to the Passover because the Passover prefigures Easter and it is also when our Lord died and tose again. Neither can the Church change that for it would contradict the decision of the holy council at Nicaea.

Fine, nobody is preventing Christians from having Easter when it suits them.

The issue is that this tradition is determining holiday dates for those of us who couldn't care less about what was decided at Nicaea in the 4th century CE and don't treat Easter as a religious event - but are quite happy for Christians to have their Easter whenever it suits them, but without their tradition determining our spring holiday dates.

Treat them as separate holidays and everyone is happy.

[Gordon]

What fo mean? That Christians can have their publuc holiday at Easter and atheist at another time? Probably not. It'll mean Christians have to take unpaid leave. Like it or not, Christianity is part of Europe's heritage.

Indeed it was, and it still is, but it is becoming more of an artifact in what is now a post-Christian society, such as here in the UK.

So I can't see that what is, in effect, a spring holiday needs to be determined by Christian traditions. If it is important to Christians then you guys take the time off work on your preferred dates rather than require the rest of us to have holiday dates imposed to suit your tradition, and especially a tradition that isn't date specific anyway.

[ad_orientem]

You mean an unpaid holiday.

[Gordon]

You mean an unpaid holiday.

That depends on your work arrangements - don't forget though that currently those wishing to take a spring week in April this year will find that they are forced to use 2 PH's in late March whether they want to or not, simply because of what some 4th century CE Christians decided.

I'd say having the spring holiday dates/PH's determined for all of us by religious traditions is no longer justifiable: it is a case of the tail wagging the dog.

[ad_orientem]

People have managed with movable feast because there is no problem. As for school "semesters" as you call it (are we in America because when I was a kid they were "terms"?), again, it wasn't problem before, they managed to do it, so why is it all of a sudden such a pain in the arse? It isn't. It just vexes you because it's Christian.

[Owlswing]

We shouldn't be surprised that feasts are tied with the cosmos, for God is the creator of the cosmos and we see the creator in that. The pagans worshipped that which they didn't know, creation (idol worship) instead of the creator.

Ad_O's desperation to de-paganise history on show yet again!

[ad_orientem]

Ad_O's desperation to de-paganise history on show yet again!

Zzzz! You're boring. Go away. No one cares what you have to say.