Fixing the date of Easter

[Spud]

That is the normal way of things, but the Passover and Feast of Unleavened Bread could occur on more than single, set day of the week.  Furthermore, the day of the Passover meal would have been the preparation day for the Feast of Unleavened Bread as the term 'Sabbath' was used for more than the weekly 'Saturday'.  It could also be used for a feast day.

Hope, you may find this useful; it points out how several verses in John have been misunderstood and explains how they affirm the accounts in the other Gospels:
http://www.answering-islam.org/Cross/crucifixion-day.html

[jeremyp]

Because that is where Ad-O says he is!

So it's actually OK for somebody to talk about a class of people even if they are not in that class. Interesting.

[OH MY WORLD!]

That's correct Shaker, you did not read his rants against where he is stuck living nor his post on hating the American people. So perhaps take a few moments and consider getting a life.

[jeremyp]

Hope, you may find this useful; it points out how several verses in John have been misunderstood and explains how they affirm the accounts in the other Gospels:
http://www.answering-islam.org/Cross/crucifixion-day.html

Yes, well the problem is that John explicitly states it was the day of preparation for the Passover when Jesus is on trial which means the ritual meal known as the Passover Seder will be happening later in the evening after Jesus has been crucified.

Unfortunately, Matthew, Mark and Luke explicitly link the Passover Seder with the Last Supper, which means that for them it has already happened.

[Spud]

Yes, well the problem is that John explicitly states it was the day of preparation for the Passover when Jesus is on trial

No he doesn't

[jeremyp]

No he doesn't

I have already quoted the passage where he does it.

Sucks to be you.

[Spud]

I have already quoted the passage where he does it.

Sucks to be you.

John 19:14 means literally, "And it was the preparation of (not for) the Passover", where paraskeue, 'the preparation', was and is still a term for describing the sixth day of the week; and 'the Passover' should be understood to mean the entire seven-day feast of unleavened bread, as defined in Luke 22:1,
"Now the Festival of Unleavened Bread, called the Passover, was approaching," (remember that unleavened bread was eaten during the Passover meal).

So John 19:14 means that it was the day of preparation for the weekly Sabbath that fell during the Passover festival.

[Owlswing]

So it's actually OK for somebody to talk about a class of people even if they are not in that class. Interesting.

In #92 Ad_O mentioned the anti-Christian he sees upon my shoulder.

I mentioned the huge anti-Semetic chip on his shoulder about the CIA/Isreal conspiracy to Islamise the West.

This anti-Semitism would seem to be a trait in Finlad who, as I state, fought on the side of an anti-Semetic Nazi Germany against the Jews.

From this I can see no point in or relevance to your post above.

[jeremyp]

John 19:14 means literally, "And it was the preparation of (not for) the Passover", where paraskeue, 'the preparation', was and is still a term for describing the sixth day of the week; and 'the Passover' should be understood to mean the entire seven-day feast of unleavened bread, as defined in Luke 22:1,
"Now the Festival of Unleavened Bread, called the Passover, was approaching," (remember that unleavened bread was eaten during the Passover meal).

So John 19:14 means that it was the day of preparation for the weekly Sabbath that fell during the Passover festival.

No it doesn't. This is bullshit invented by Christians to try to rationalise the problem away.

The day of preparation of/for the Passover is obviously the day before the Passover meal when you actually prepare the Passover meal. It's that simple. There is also a day of preparation of/for the Sabbath which happens once a week, but it is not that to which John refers.

By the way, you do know that it is essential to John's narrative that Jesus be crucified at the same time as the sacrificing of the Paschal Lamb, don't you?

[Nearly Sane]

In #92 Ad_O mentioned the anti-Christian he sees upon my shoulder.

I mentioned the huge anti-Semetic chip on his shoulder about the CIA/Isreal conspiracy to Islamise the West.

This anti-Semitism would seem to be a trait in Finlad who, as I state, fought on the side of an anti-Semetic Nazi Germany against the Jews.

From this I can see no point in or relevance to your post above.

Treating the people of  countries as simple traits is the basis of racism.

[ad_orientem]

In #92 Ad_O mentioned the anti-Christian he sees upon my shoulder.

I mentioned the huge anti-Semetic chip on his shoulder about the CIA/Isreal conspiracy to Islamise the West.

This anti-Semitism would seem to be a trait in Finlad who, as I state, fought on the side of an anti-Semetic Nazi Germany against the Jews.

From this I can see no point in or relevance to your post above.

You should get your history right first. Another thing you know fuck all about. Finland accepted German help against a Soviet invasion. A completely different thing.

[Spud]

No it doesn't. This is bullshit invented by Christians to try to rationalise the problem away.

The day of preparation of/for the Passover is obviously the day before the Passover meal when you actually prepare the Passover meal. It's that simple. There is also a day of preparation of/for the Sabbath which happens once a week, but it is not that to which John refers.

By the way, you do know that it inessential to John's narrative that Jesus be crucified at the same time as the sacrificing of the Paschal Lamb, don't you?

I don't think it's made up, but I understand and appreciate your view that John's chronology contradicts the other Gospels. Although the Old Testament refers to the meal on the evening of 14th Nisan day of the month of Nisan as "The Lord's Passover", it's known that by the New Testament, the term, "The Passover" could also be used to refer to the Feast of Unleavened Bread.
"Paraskeue tou pascha" ("preparation day" of the Passover") primarily refers to Friday. There is no evidence that I know of to support the view that it can also refer to the day before a festival sabbath (which could fall on any day of the week). You only have John's statement in 19:14 to go by. You would think the other three Evangelists would call it the same, but instead they refer to it as "the first day of the feast of unleavened bread".
The term "Paraskeue tou pascha" must refer to something else. Note that during the feast the firstfruits offering was made in the temple on "the day after the Sabbath" (Lev. 23:11). So that particular weekend was special because it fell during the Passover week, and it was the Sunday when the Firstfruits offering was made. This would be a likely reason why they would refer to the preceding Friday as "the Preparation of the Passover".
This would explain John's "special Sabbath" (19:31).
Yes, I realize a theme in John is the Lamb of God. However, there were other sacrificial offerings made on the first day of the feast, the 15th of Nisan (cf Numbers 28:18-19). Note that the flesh of these would have been eaten by the priests, which could explain their anxiety to avoid ceremonial defilement by entering Pilate's palace.

[jeremyp]

Although the Old Testament refers to the meal on the eveing of 14th Nisan as "The Lord's Passover"

There is no ritual meal on the 14th, the meal occurs on the 15th because the Jewish day starts at the beginning of the evening. The lamb is sacrificed in the afternoon when it is still the 14th and is eaten the same evening, when it is the 15th.

it's known that by the New Testament, the term, "The Passover" could also be used to refer to the Feast of Unleavened Bread.

The Feast of Unleavened Bread refers to the whole of Passover from 15th Nissan to 21st Nissan

"Paraskeue tou pascha" ("preparation of the Passover") primarily refers to Friday.

No it doesn't, it primarily refers to 14th Nisan which is not always a Friday.

Yes, I realize a theme in John is the Lamb of God. However, there were other sacrificial offerings made on the first day of the feast, the 15th of Nisan (cf Numbers 28:18-19). Note that the flesh of these would have been eaten by the priests, which could explain their anxiety to avoid ceremonial defilement by entering Pilate's palace.

The Paschal lamb is sacrificed on the 14th. "Paschal" derives from the Jewish word "Pesach" which is the real name of Passover.

[Hope]

There is also a day of preparation of/for the Sabbath which happens once a week, but it is not that to which John refers.

The problem with this reading is that at some points in the Jewish calaendar, you can have a Sabbath that doesn't fall on the day following Friday.  Technically, feast days were also Sabbaths, and so you can have more Sabbaths that there are weekends in a year.

[Spud]

There is no ritual meal on the 14th, the meal occurs on the 15th because the Jewish day starts at the beginning of the evening. The lamb is sacrificed in the afternoon when it is still the 14th and is eaten the same evening, when it is the 15th.

I've modified my post, having checked in Leviticus 23 where the initial Passover meal is described as taking place on the evening of the 14th day of Nisan.

The Feast of Unleavened Bread refers to the whole of Passover from 15th Nissan to 21st Nissan

My point was that "The Passover" can also refer to the entire festival, as it does in Luke 22:1, and also John 13:1. So it also could in John 19:14.

No it doesn't, it primarily refers to 14th Nisan which is not always a Friday.

"Paraskeue tou pascha" is only ever used once, so you have no way of confirming that it refers to that. It would be more accurate to interpret the phrase in the light of the established meaning of "paraskeue". *(See below)

Regardless, I should have said that "paraskeue" primarily refers to Friday. I've corrected my post.

The Paschal lamb is sacrificed on the 14th. "Paschal" derives from the Jewish word "Pesach" which is the real name of Passover.

I agree, but this does not rule out the possibility that the meal the priests were anxious to be able to eat was the one that took place during the day on 15th Nisan.

*Edit: The six occurrences of paraskeue are:

Matthew 27:62: "that followed the day of the preparation, the chief priests and"
Mark 15:42: "was come, because it was the preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath,"
Luke 23:54: "And that day was the preparation, and the sabbath drew on."
John 19:14: "And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth"
John 19:31: "therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not"
John 19:42: "because of the Jews' preparation day; for the sepulcher was"

There seems little doubt that all five occurrences other than John 19:14 are basically telling us that it was Friday, because the bodies had to be taken down. This establishes the primary meaning of paraskeue.

[Bubbles]

The problem with this reading is that at some points in the Jewish calaendar, you can have a Sabbath that doesn't fall on the day following Friday.  Technically, feast days were also Sabbaths, and so you can have more Sabbaths that there are weekends in a year.

I might have guessed it was you posting this nonsense.

Try posting a Jewish link that supports it.

I think you made it up.

[Hope]

I might have guessed it was you posting this nonsense.

Try posting a Jewish link that supports it.

I think you made it up.

Not a Jewish link, I'm afraid, but ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabbath#High_Sabbaths

[jeremyp]

The problem with this reading is that at some points in the Jewish calaendar, you can have a Sabbath that doesn't fall on the day following Friday. 

There's no problem with the reading at all. It explicitly states that the was the Day of Preparation for the Passover i.e. the day leading up to the Passover Meal. There's no problem for anybody except somebody trying to reconcile a discrepancy between the gospels.

Technically, feast days were also Sabbaths, and so you can have more Sabbaths that there are weekends in a year.

Well duh! The 15th Nisan, first day of the Passover is one of those  feast days that was considered to be the same as a Sabbath.

[jeremyp]

I've modified my post, having checked in Leviticus 23 where the initial Passover meal is described as taking place on the evening of the 14th day of Nisan.

No it doesn't. This is what it says

These are the appointed festivals of the Lord, the holy convocations, which you shall celebrate at the time appointed for them. In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month, at twilight, there shall be a passover-offering to the Lord, and on the fifteenth day of the same month is the festival of unleavened bread to the Lord

You do the sacrifice at twilight on the 14th and because it is twilight. it is then immediately the 15th when you sit down and eat the meal.

My point was that "The Passover" can also refer to the entire festival, as it does in Luke 22:1, and also John 13:1. So it also could in John 19:14.

So you understand that the eve of a seven day festival is the same day as the eve of the first day of the festival. It does not matter whether John was referring to the first day or all of Passover, the Preparation Day is the same day.

[Spud]

Jeremy, so if John had wanted to say, "it was the Friday of the passover week", how would he have written it?

[jeremyp]

Jeremy, so if John had wanted to say, "it was the Friday of the passover week", how would he have written it?

He would say "it was Friday".

[Hope]

He would say "it was Friday".

I doubt it, jeremy.  After all, 'Friday' is an English word, and one based on Scandinavian folklore.       If anything, he would have called it the 6th day - "Yom Ha´shee´shee - sometimes Yohm shee shee", or in this context 'Preparation Day'.

[jeremyp]

I doubt it, jeremy.  After all, 'Friday' is an English word, and one based on Scandinavian folklore.

Are you stupid or dishonest?  Of course he wouldn't say it in English.

[Sassy]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/12102278/Easter-date-to-be-fixed-within-next-five-to-10-years.html

I think it is daft that the date of Easter hasn't been fixed before now. Christmas is a fixed date even though it is highly unlikely Jesus was born on that date.

Some schools are already fixing their Spring terms dates without taking Easter into consideration, which seems sensible.

As much as the two anniversaries are marked in some way. I still believe that the true festivals which they mark are more important to remember Christ than the modern ones since Christ.
God gave us Christ and he is the completion of the plans and works of God in the bible OT.
Above everything it is God whom we should love...

[Spud]

He would say "it was Friday".

The question again: If John had wanted to say, "it was the Friday of the passover week", how would he have written it?

I want the whole sentence translated into Greek, please.