Liberation

[Sriram]

Hi everyone,

Different words are used in different religions for the Ultimate Goal of life.

1. Liberation  - Setting free.

2. Moksha     - Freedom from temporal existence.

3. Mukti         - Freedom from bondage.   

4. Salvation   - Saved from sin.

5. Nirvana      - Burning out. Freedom from bondage.

From this one thing is obvious. All these words and ideas mean that today we are leading a life of bondage from which we will be liberated if we follow certain rules and norms.

What is this bondage?  Our needs are the bondage.

In the ordinary course of life we live only to gratify our needs...whether eating, sleeping, sex, ego, love & attachment or some other form of self expression. Happiness arises at one level through need gratification....and at a higher level, happiness arises from the elimination of all needs. 

From a position of relative freedom, falling back increasingly into need gratification is seen as 'sin'....from which we need to be saved. 

All religions world over have taught that we should control our needs  and try to lead a simple and selfless life.  Even modern civilization emphasizes self discipline and social concerns over selfish motives.

In all spiritual pursuits, self control and selfless behavior leads to Final Liberation and Freedom.  In other words, it is our animal tendencies that keep us in bondage and in a cycle of eternal need gratification.

We have to control our inherent animal tendencies to attain salvation and freedom. This freedom is seen as eternal bliss and as heaven. Its an end in itself.

According to spirituality...one part of us is locked in this bondage of need gratification while another part is already free from it. Its identifying and realizing this second part (the Higher Self) that is the goal of life.  This leads to eternal freedom....liberation!

Some thoughts.

Cheers.

Sriram

[Brownie]

Very good Siriam.  As we age our needs are fewer, that's how it should be.  (Easy to talk about and celebrate having "less needs" when we have security though.)

[OH MY WORLD!]

"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life."   Titus 3: 5-7

[Shaker]

Who put a coin in the BibleBot? 

[OH MY WORLD!]

Oh dear, the Shaker has a problem with the Christian salvation being totally different than the Hindu. The godless atheist seems to have gotten his huge grandma panties in a twist at the quote from the Bible. Wasting all day in front of the computer thinking about God and arguing against God's existence all day and every day. He'll be here again ALL Wednesday with God on his mind, poor thing. That's all his life is about apparently. Heya Shakey, I'm a friend, get a real life.

The BibleBot

Now how's about a comment on the OP? You have nothing else to do but sit at the computer.

[Shaker]

Oh dear, the Shaker has a problem with the Christian salvation being totally different than the Hindu. The godless atheist seems to have gotten his huge grandma panties in a twist at the quote from the Bible.

Not with the quote per se, more with the sheer thoughtless laziness of merely regurgitating yet another Bible quote as-is, with absolutely no context, no commentary and no explanation as to why this is deemed to be relevant to the subject at hand.

Wasting all day in front of the computer thinking about God and arguing against God's existence all day and every day.

As Hitch was known to observe, time spent arguing with the faithful is almost never wasted.

He'll be here again ALL Wednesday with God on his mind, poor thing.

No he won't, as he has an appointment tomorrow which is likely to take up most or all of the morning.

Now how's about a comment on the OP?

Is there much of a comment to be made about blancmange?

[OH MY WORLD!]

That's a hoot Shake, you can't understand English. Good works do not bring salvation. Sriram believes good deeds will bring freedom/liberation. Completely opposite of what the Bible tell the Christian. Now read those verses again.

And if you still can't understand English there is this verse that might be easier for you.

"Now the Lord is that Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty."   2Corinthians 3:17

And a commentary to hold your hand through those verses in Titus.

http://www.christnotes.org/commentary.php?com=mhc&b=56&c=3

So, since you are a bit slow here, I was simply pointing out that the Christian's salvation/freedom/liberty is very different than Sriram's

[Shaker]

That's a hoot Shake, you can't understand English. Good works do not bring salvation. Sriram believes good deeds will bring freedom/liberation. Completely opposite of what the Bible tell the Christian. Now read those verses again.
So, since you are a bit slow here, I was simply pointing out that the Christian's salvation/freedom/liberty is very different than Sriram's

So two chuckleheads have entirely different, completely unevidenced and undemonstrated beliefs.

Hardly stop the presses stuff, is it?

[Leonard James]

"Now the Lord is that Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty."   2Corinthians 3:17

Providing you obey his mandates. Sounds rather dictatorial, doesn't he? 

[Sriram]

That's a hoot Shake, you can't understand English. Good works do not bring salvation. Sriram believes good deeds will bring freedom/liberation. Completely opposite of what the Bible tell the Christian. Now read those verses again.

And if you still can't understand English there is this verse that might be easier for you.

"Now the Lord is that Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty."   2Corinthians 3:17

And a commentary to hold your hand through those verses in Titus.

http://www.christnotes.org/commentary.php?com=mhc&b=56&c=3

So, since you are a bit slow here, I was simply pointing out that the Christian's salvation/freedom/liberty is very different than Sriram's

Hi OH MY World,

Actually the ideas are not as different as you perhaps perceive it.

In Hinduism we have three paths to Liberation.   One is the Path of Knowledge, the other is the Path of Action/Duty and the third is the Path of Devotion.

Most people in the world follow the Path of Devotion which is true of Hindus also. Hindus who follow this path are free to worship any deity they want as long as they follow the relevant Dharma (rules).

Worshiping Jesus is a perfectly valid means to Salvation or Liberation....just as worshiping Allah, Vishnu, Buddha...is.

You will agree that while worshiping Jesus you will also follow his teachings such as the Golden Rule, showing the other cheek, compassion and so on.  That's the dharma bit.

Cheers.

Sriram

 

[ippy]

"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life."   Titus 3: 5-7

How do you know? Prove it.

You can't possibly know this, nobody does, you may well believe it but that's a lot diferent to knowing.

Why do you keep kidding yourself, it doesn't make any sense.

ippy

[Sriram]

Very good Siriam.  As we age our needs are fewer, that's how it should be.  (Easy to talk about and celebrate having "less needs" when we have security though.)

Brownie,

Yes...its true that we gain more control over our desires and needs as we age....simply because the needs become less intense and powerful.

But that is not spiritual growth.

If Hitler was older (had he lived) he would not have become a saint. Its just that his equipment (the body & mind) would have become less efficient.  Evil people, even when they are old, they remain evil inside. Good people, even when they are young and their needs are more intense, they are good.

Its spiritual development over many births that fits in with the idea of final liberation.




 

[Shaker]

Worshiping Jesus is a perfectly valid means to Salvation or Liberation....just as worshiping Allah, Vishnu, Buddha...is.

Christians and Muslims tend not to agree with you there.

[Sriram]

Christians and Muslims tend not to agree with you there.

Yes...I know that. That doesn't mean it is not true.

Every child thinks that his father is the greatest.  Its just a form of adulation that is required for development during childhood. 

Its only when one develops a overall view do we realize that it is a universal phenomenon. Something not objectively true but a common subjective mindset  all the same. 

At that stage we neither ridicule a person for holding that view nor take it too seriously!

[Hope]

Christians and Muslims tend not to agree with you there.

And some Jews.  Whilst some Hindus, Buddhists, Jains, etc. would argue that following Christ gets you nowhere.

[Sriram]

And some Jews.  Whilst some Hindus, Buddhists, Jains, etc. would argue that following Christ gets you nowhere.

Yes...there are many Hindus, Buddhists etc who are as fanatical as the Christians and Muslims. 

The Hare Krishna (ISKCON) movement is an example.  It is a typical western movement though worshipping a Hindu deity. Those people are so fanatical about Krishna and their entire theology is so Krishna centric that most Hindus in India are wary of them and prefer the non-ISKCON (traditional)  temples to worship Krishna.

Many Buddhists are also highly fanatical and consider Buddhism as the only way.

 

[jeremyp]

Hi everyone,

Different words are used in different religions for the Ultimate Goal of life.

1. Liberation  - Setting free.

2. Moksha     - Freedom from temporal existence.

3. Mukti         - Freedom from bondage.   

4. Salvation   - Saved from sin.

5. Nirvana      - Burning out. Freedom from bondage.

From this one thing is obvious. All these words and ideas mean that today we are leading a life of bondage from which we will be liberated if we follow certain rules and norms.

Even from your heavily biased definitions, it's clear that they don't all mean the same thing.

[Brownie]

Brownie,

Yes...its true that we gain more control over our desires and needs as we age....simply because the needs become less intense and powerful.

But that is not spiritual growth.

If Hitler was older (had he lived) he would not have become a saint. Its just that his equipment (the body & mind) would have become less efficient.  Evil people, even when they are old, they remain evil inside. Good people, even when they are young and their needs are more intense, they are good.

Its spiritual development over many births that fits in with the idea of final liberation.

That's very interesting siriam, however I do believe that we are all a mixture of good and evil, not equally balanced of course, quite good people can do bad things and vice versa.  I'm not disputing your belief in many births because I respect your right to your faith but I sincerely believe that we can be spiritually reborn - and enlightened - in our lifetime.

[Sriram]

That's very interesting siriam, however I do believe that we are all a mixture of good and evil, not equally balanced of course, quite good people can do bad things and vice versa.  I'm not disputing your belief in many births because I respect your right to your faith but I sincerely believe that we can be spiritually reborn - and enlightened - in our lifetime.

Yes...we can be 'reborn' and get enlightened in one life time ...IF we are at a suitable spiritual level. Not otherwise.

What you call 'reborn' is what I call 'realizing the inner self'.

A vast majority of the people around the world cannot be - 'reborn' - in one lifetime given the wide and varied types of people around the world and the varied circumstances in which they are born and  live.

Reincarnation is not a matter of 'faith' for me. It is a conjecture or even a hypothesis. If I have to accept only one lifetime for some reason, I would rather go with the materialistic view of  a purposeless  random world.

Accepting a God and a purpose to life with an absolute morality and final justice....I cannot but accept reincarnation as the only Just, fair and meaningful way in which every soul will develop, get justice and attain final liberation.

[Brownie]

Siriam:  What you call 'reborn' is what I call 'realizing the inner self'.

Yes, that is where we find God.

[Leonard James]

Siriam:  What you call 'reborn' is what I call 'realizing the inner self'.

Yes, that is where we find God.

Or whichever god you believe in. There must be an enormous number of gods in this "inner self" place. 

[Sriram]

Or whichever god you believe in. There must be an enormous number of gods in this "inner self" place. 

Len...this is something beyond your ken.    Just let it be......please.

[Sriram]

Siriam:  What you call 'reborn' is what I call 'realizing the inner self'.

Yes, that is where we find God.

Yes...you're right. That is what makes me sure that all religious teachings are fundamentally the same if understood in their esoteric sense. In  exoteric terms they seem different.

[Leonard James]

Len...this is something beyond your ken.    Just let it be......please.

Sorry, Sriram, but if I want to comment I am going to do so.

Beyond my ken in this case means it exists only in your imagination. 

[Sriram]

Sorry, Sriram, but if I want to comment I am going to do so.

Beyond my ken in this case means it exists only in your imagination. 

Fine...if you say so!