Author Topic: 'Why humans find it hard to do away with religion'  (Read 14276 times)

Jack Knave

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Re: 'Why humans find it hard to do away with religion'
« Reply #75 on: January 25, 2016, 07:33:48 PM »
It isn't a camp, despite what you might read here, it's a description where the postive is like tea, and the binary is no expressed liking for tea, which includes a dislike or a not sure what tea is.
Not knowing what tea tastes like and not liking tea are two different positions. A before and after event.

Nearly Sane

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Re: 'Why humans find it hard to do away with religion'
« Reply #76 on: January 25, 2016, 07:48:22 PM »
Not knowing what tea tastes like and not liking tea are two different positions. A before and after event.

And atheism isn't a not liking tea or translated not believing in God. It's a lack of belief from an entity capable of liking/not liking tea see believing/not believing, not having a belief in god

Jack Knave

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Re: 'Why humans find it hard to do away with religion'
« Reply #77 on: January 25, 2016, 08:41:13 PM »
And atheism isn't a not liking tea or translated not believing in God. It's a lack of belief from an entity capable of liking/not liking tea see believing/not believing, not having a belief in god
So am a aboogglist because I don't believe in or hold any views on Booggles, even though I haven't a clue what a Booggle is or the concepts it's suppose to contain?

Nearly Sane

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Re: 'Why humans find it hard to do away with religion'
« Reply #78 on: January 25, 2016, 08:48:39 PM »
So am a aboogglist because I don't believe in or hold any views on Booggles, even though I haven't a clue what a Booggle is or the concepts it's suppose to contain?

Yep. In terms of there being a lack of belief in Booggles, as opposed to be a Boogglist. As long as there is a capability of belief, there is belief or not belief.

Outrider

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Re: 'Why humans find it hard to do away with religion'
« Reply #79 on: January 26, 2016, 09:12:23 AM »
No, the lack means it is neither one or the other. It has not yet acquired the concepts to make such a choice. There are no default positions here.

It is a bit like saying you have decided to not like tea even though you have never tried it. Until you try it you are not in either camp.

The two are complementary - you either like tea or you don't. The reason you don't like tea is irrelevant: whether it's an active choice from experience or simply a lack of information doesn't change the fact that you don't put yourself in the group 'likes tea'.

O.
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Outrider

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Re: 'Why humans find it hard to do away with religion'
« Reply #80 on: January 26, 2016, 09:15:11 AM »
Next bit. You can only say that from a position of hindsight. If there are no concepts of Gods (or the concept has not been instilled into the person) then there can be no atheism on their part. How can you disagree with a concept or idea if you have never encountered it?

You don't have to disagree with any given concept in order to be an atheist. Atheists are those people who don't subscribe to the theory of gods - you don't have to be aware of the concept, you don't have to have actively rejected the theory, you just have to not self-subscribe as a believer.

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What you are saying is that you are making a judgement about someone else's position as an external agent but it is what the person themselves think and know that is the clinching factor here, and which dictates that person's actual position on the matter. There being three possible ones of theist, atheist and undecided or not even considered.

No, there aren't. You are pitching atheism as an active rejection, and it isn't (necessarily). It's the group of all the people who aren't theists.

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

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Outrider

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Re: 'Why humans find it hard to do away with religion'
« Reply #81 on: January 26, 2016, 09:17:17 AM »
Not knowing what tea tastes like and not liking tea are two different positions. A before and after event.

I think you're conflating 'not liking' tea with 'disliking' tea. You can only dislike tea after you've tried it, but you don't 'like tea' if you've never had it, you don't know.

The group of people who don't like tea includes the people that actively dislike and the people who don't know yet.

Similarly, the people who are atheists include those that are aware of the idea and have rejected it (or remain unconvinced) and those that have no idea of the concept - theism is an active choice, and atheism is the state of not having made that choice.

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

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Gonnagle

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Re: 'Why humans find it hard to do away with religion'
« Reply #82 on: January 26, 2016, 09:59:34 AM »
Dear Me,

I think this little debate/discussion has got ahead of itself, those words God and atheism should be left out of the debate, the words I think we should concentrate on are, belief and believe.

Whether it is by evolution or the time spent in the womb until those few minutes after we are born, we are programmed to believe that something bigger than us is looking after us.

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Nearly Sane

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Re: 'Why humans find it hard to do away with religion'
« Reply #83 on: January 26, 2016, 10:10:45 AM »
Dear Me,

I think this little debate/discussion has got ahead of itself, those words God and atheism should be left out of the debate, the words I think we should concentrate on are, belief and believe.

Whether it is by evolution or the time spent in the womb until those few minutes after we are born, we are programmed to believe that something bigger than us is looking after us.

Gonnagle.

We are not capable of that type of conscious belief at that stage. When we are we have also experienced nurture.

Outrider

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Re: 'Why humans find it hard to do away with religion'
« Reply #84 on: January 26, 2016, 12:05:37 PM »
I think this little debate/discussion has got ahead of itself, those words God and atheism should be left out of the debate, the words I think we should concentrate on are, belief and believe.

Whether it is by evolution or the time spent in the womb until those few minutes after we are born, we are programmed to believe that something bigger than us is looking after us.

That we have a natural tendency doesn't mean that, as rational agents, we should simply give in to the natural tendency - after all, we also have a natural tendency to try to resolve disputes with violence and to hoard supplies at the expense of those outside the direct clan/tribe.

Civilisation is built, at least in part, on the suppression of some of the evolutionarily advantageous but less palatable instincts.

O.
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Sriram

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Re: 'Why humans find it hard to do away with religion'
« Reply #85 on: January 26, 2016, 12:22:40 PM »
That we have a natural tendency doesn't mean that, as rational agents, we should simply give in to the natural tendency - after all, we also have a natural tendency to try to resolve disputes with violence and to hoard supplies at the expense of those outside the direct clan/tribe.

Civilisation is built, at least in part, on the suppression of some of the evolutionarily advantageous but less palatable instincts.

O.


Yes indeed!  I agree that we are evolving to eliminate many of our basic instincts while building up within ourselves more civilized and humane qualities. This is what is usually called spiritual development. It is the same as Self development or Character development.

And...religions have over the years been trying to make us develop in exactly that direction. So....we can see that spiritual development, religious norms, social and cultural development, biological evolution...have all been moving in the same direction. 

Less animal...more divine qualities...that's the idea!
« Last Edit: January 26, 2016, 12:38:36 PM by Sriram »

Outrider

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Re: 'Why humans find it hard to do away with religion'
« Reply #86 on: January 26, 2016, 12:41:09 PM »
Yes indeed!  I agree that we are evolving to eliminate many of our basic instincts while building up within ourselves more civilized and humane qualities.

I'd say 'developing' to avoid any confusion with the biological process of evolution, but broadly yes.

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This is what is usually called spiritual development. It is the same as Self development or Character development.

That's not the sense I usually get when people use the phrase 'spiritual' - it seems as though 'ethical' would be a better fit here, given the context.

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And...religions have over the years been trying to make us develop in exactly that direction.

Some people in some religions, but not all of them, and certainly not all religions. Given the immense power religious institutions have had in some cultures, it can be difficult to determine exactly what is a product of the religion and what is a product of the people involved, regardless of their (nominal) religion - certainly, though, there have been more than enough examples, right up to the  modern day, of religious people and institutions endorsing ideas that are not progressive or ethical, but only justifiable within their own 'spiritual' framework.

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So....we can see that spiritual development, religious norms, social and cultural development, biological evolution...have all been moving in the same direction.  Less animal...more divine qualities...that's the idea!

Again, some truth in that, and some confirmation bias. Cultural development has very obviously not solely been progressive: almost two thousand years after some very creditable philosophy in the foundational documents of Christianity we see the Nazis trying to exterminate the Jewish people - that's not progress.

Similarly, we see religious people of many stripes attempting to ostracise gay people whilst 'spiritualists' take science buzzwords hostage to peddle pseudoscience for personal profit at the expense of anyone who'll listen. 'Divinity' is as meaningless a concept as 'spiritual', and our capacity to overcome natural impediments to procreation means that biological evolution's direct influence on humanity is severely limited.

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

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King Oberon

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Re: 'Why humans find it hard to do away with religion'
« Reply #87 on: January 26, 2016, 02:17:54 PM »
Less animal...more divine qualities...that's the idea!

 ;D I wish I had that kind of faith in mankind!

If you take off those 'spiritual' tinted glasses you will find a world full of horrors some caused by religions but I would say the majority probably not.

It's pretty easy to talk spirituality when atrocities aren't being carried out on you and yours because if they were you would find your animal qualities pretty damn quick I'm sure.

A natural disaster on a global scale is all it would take for man to go back to his baser instincts I think
I believe in everything until it's disproved. So I believe in fairies, the myths, dragons. It all exists, even if it's in your mind. Who's to say that dreams and nightmares aren't as real as the here and now?

Sriram

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Re: 'Why humans find it hard to do away with religion'
« Reply #88 on: January 26, 2016, 04:39:38 PM »
I'd say 'developing' to avoid any confusion with the biological process of evolution, but broadly yes.

That's not the sense I usually get when people use the phrase 'spiritual' - it seems as though 'ethical' would be a better fit here, given the context.

Some people in some religions, but not all of them, and certainly not all religions. Given the immense power religious institutions have had in some cultures, it can be difficult to determine exactly what is a product of the religion and what is a product of the people involved, regardless of their (nominal) religion - certainly, though, there have been more than enough examples, right up to the  modern day, of religious people and institutions endorsing ideas that are not progressive or ethical, but only justifiable within their own 'spiritual' framework.

Again, some truth in that, and some confirmation bias. Cultural development has very obviously not solely been progressive: almost two thousand years after some very creditable philosophy in the foundational documents of Christianity we see the Nazis trying to exterminate the Jewish people - that's not progress.

Similarly, we see religious people of many stripes attempting to ostracise gay people whilst 'spiritualists' take science buzzwords hostage to peddle pseudoscience for personal profit at the expense of anyone who'll listen. 'Divinity' is as meaningless a concept as 'spiritual', and our capacity to overcome natural impediments to procreation means that biological evolution's direct influence on humanity is severely limited.

O.


Evolution does not go forward like a truck. It is more like a river in which certain parts move faster than others. Some of the waters move away into  tributaries. Some move away and stagnate into lakes.  That does not mean the river as a whole does not have a direction. It does.

We need to be careful about this paranoia with the negatives of religion.... (thanks to people like Dawkins  ::)).    Alright...there were the crusades, there were witch hunts, there was persecution of some people, there are the jihad's and the current terrorists.   

However, the positives are much more than these negatives. Just because some people develop infections from hospitals we don't close down hospitals. Just because some doctors kill people we don't think of doctors as killers. 

We need to have a balance and realize how much religions have done to humanize people, to instill self control and a social vision .....and helped us to move away from our savage past.



torridon

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Re: 'Why humans find it hard to do away with religion'
« Reply #89 on: January 26, 2016, 05:50:36 PM »

Yes indeed!  I agree that we are evolving to eliminate many of our basic instincts while building up within ourselves more civilized and humane qualities. This is what is usually called spiritual development. It is the same as Self development or Character development.

And...religions have over the years been trying to make us develop in exactly that direction. So....we can see that spiritual development, religious norms, social and cultural development, biological evolution...have all been moving in the same direction. 

Less animal...more divine qualities...that's the idea!

I think you are conflating notions of human progress with evolution.  For example, people who you might regard as educated, civilised, aesthetic, cerebral, spiritual, these are probably not the people with large families by and large, and so these characteristics will not feature strongly in determining the future shape of the human genome.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: 'Why humans find it hard to do away with religion'
« Reply #90 on: January 26, 2016, 06:19:10 PM »
Sriram,

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Evolution does not go forward like a truck. It is more like a river in which certain parts move faster than others. Some of the waters move away into  tributaries. Some move away and stagnate into lakes.  That does not mean the river as a whole does not have a direction. It does.

Nope: evolution is descent with adaptation – it does not have a “direction” at all. When an environment changes sometimes random genetic mutations will enable the genome better to thrive in that changed environment, and given enough change over time speciation occurs.   

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We need to be careful about this paranoia with the negatives of religion.... (thanks to people like Dawkins   ).    Alright...there were the crusades, there were witch hunts, there was persecution of some people, there are the jihad's and the current terrorists.

Apart from that though… 

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However, the positives are much more than these negatives.

Why do you think that?

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Just because some people develop infections from hospitals we don't close down hospitals. Just because some doctors kill people we don't think of doctors as killers.

That’s true, but it’s not a meaningful comparison. Try instead, say, Boeing designing aeroplanes according to its new “just guessing” method. Once in a blue moon one of the ‘planes so designed will indeed fly, but that’s hardly the point.       

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We need to have a balance and realize how much religions have done to humanize people, to instill self control and a social vision .....and helped us to move away from our savage past.

Well, you’d need to demonstrate how much they have done that rather than the opposite of that to have an argument, but in the meantime the basic problem remains the privileging of religious “faith” as a reliable guide to truth. Guessing about stuff is more likely by magnitudes to lead to inaccurate answers rather than to accurate ones, and that’s a problem for the “it’s a fact for you too” religious.   
« Last Edit: January 26, 2016, 06:24:23 PM by bluehillside »
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Outrider

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Re: 'Why humans find it hard to do away with religion'
« Reply #91 on: January 27, 2016, 10:31:02 AM »
Evolution does not go forward like a truck. It is more like a river in which certain parts move faster than others. Some of the waters move away into  tributaries. Some move away and stagnate into lakes.  That does not mean the river as a whole does not have a direction. It does.

Evolution does not have a direction at all, it is not 'aimed' or 'targetted', there is no ultimate destination, there is just an instantaneous reaction to localised pressures on natural variation.

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We need to be careful about this paranoia with the negatives of religion.... (thanks to people like Dawkins  ::)).    Alright...there were the crusades, there were witch hunts, there was persecution of some people, there are the jihad's and the current terrorists.

Agreed, but we can't afford to forget that religions tendency towards authoritarianism and tribalism lends itself to these activities.
   
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However, the positives are much more than these negatives. Just because some people develop infections from hospitals we don't close down hospitals. Just because some doctors kill people we don't think of doctors as killers.

Nothing intrinsic in being a hospital involves delivering infections - it's an unfortunate byproduct of the accumulation of sick people. Nothing intrinsic in being a doctor leads to murder, it's just that doctors are humans. Religion, though, is intrinisically authoritarian - there is an 'absolute truth' out there - and it's intrinisically tribal; this is not a good combination, whatever peaceable philosophies are painted over the top. 

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We need to have a balance and realize how much religions have done to humanize people, to instill self control and a social vision .....and helped us to move away from our savage past.

And, equally, we need to appreciate that their day is done, the achievements of basic civilisation that come from building communities are already well identified, and we need to move beyond tribalism and superstition and build a global community in which all are free to be as they choose. Whilst religious socieites indeed gave us many cultural developments, it's questionable exactly how much of it was down to the religions specifically and how much was down to being communities (of which religious accumulations are just one variety). Certain civilising ideas, though, have come in more recent years not from religions but in spite of them - the acceptability of, say, the Anglican community in comparison to the more fundamental Christianities of Africa and the US is not a product of religious development, but rather a product of British culture neutering the negative aspects of Christianity in Anglicanism.

O.
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Sriram

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Re: 'Why humans find it hard to do away with religion'
« Reply #92 on: January 27, 2016, 02:16:52 PM »
Evolution does not have a direction at all, it is not 'aimed' or 'targetted', there is no ultimate destination, there is just an instantaneous reaction to localised pressures on natural variation.

Agreed, but we can't afford to forget that religions tendency towards authoritarianism and tribalism lends itself to these activities.
   
Nothing intrinsic in being a hospital involves delivering infections - it's an unfortunate byproduct of the accumulation of sick people. Nothing intrinsic in being a doctor leads to murder, it's just that doctors are humans. Religion, though, is intrinisically authoritarian - there is an 'absolute truth' out there - and it's intrinisically tribal; this is not a good combination, whatever peaceable philosophies are painted over the top. 

And, equally, we need to appreciate that their day is done, the achievements of basic civilisation that come from building communities are already well identified, and we need to move beyond tribalism and superstition and build a global community in which all are free to be as they choose. Whilst religious socieites indeed gave us many cultural developments, it's questionable exactly how much of it was down to the religions specifically and how much was down to being communities (of which religious accumulations are just one variety). Certain civilising ideas, though, have come in more recent years not from religions but in spite of them - the acceptability of, say, the Anglican community in comparison to the more fundamental Christianities of Africa and the US is not a product of religious development, but rather a product of British culture neutering the negative aspects of Christianity in Anglicanism.

O.


1. Merely asserting that evolution does not have a direction does not change anything.  It is plain that evolution does have a direction. The journey from DNA strands and unicellular organisms to modern humans....IS the direction.   Its not anyone's imagination...its actually happened that way!

As we have seen in the thread on 'A new discovery about evolution' .....it takes just one mutation to make the jump from unicellular to multicellular. A one in a trillion trillion chance!   This 'chance mutation' has to happen in millions of organisms for it to become a planet wide phenomenon. From there it takes millions of other 'chance mutations' for additional complexity and emergent properties to arise. 

This is the direction that evolution has taken.  Its not speculation. The fine tuning and tweaking all along the way is obvious.

Now...why and how exactly this tweaking happens is a different argument which we can talk about as long as we want. No clear and ready answers are available. However merely mocking the God argument doesn't help.....nor does it help to attribute it all to 'chance'.  The answer doesn't have to be either of these two extremes.

Using 'survival instinct' as the answer don't help either...because 'survival' then becomes the objective and purpose of evolution.  Why should anything survive?!  From where and why did that 'instinct' come in?

That all these millions of improbable mutations and emergent properties happened entirely due to random variations and chance environmental factors....is the biggest lie ever sold!  Not dissimilar to the Adam & Eve story IMO.  We may not yet know the reason or the driving forces ...but we need to find out.

2. Religion has authority ...yes... but it is only authority that helps people to obey and follow the rules. More so when most people are unlettered and driven more by instinct than by reason. Following the rules over several generations is what leads to a civilized society  eventually.  Like educating children in school.

So...putting down 'religious authority' is as bad as putting down school authorities and rules.

Secondly 'scientific authority' can be no less draconian than religious authority in many cases. It can sometimes be as misleading and rigid as the other.

3. Religions are certainly not obsolete. You may not need religion but you cannot speak for 7 billion people worldwide.   Many billions of people still need religion and will always do.  Primary schools and nursery rhymes will never become obsolete. Same with religion.


Outrider

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Re: 'Why humans find it hard to do away with religion'
« Reply #93 on: January 27, 2016, 02:43:54 PM »
1. Merely asserting that evolution does not have a direction does not change anything.  It is plain that evolution does have a direction. The journey from DNA strands and unicellular organisms to modern humans....IS the direction.   Its not anyone's imagination...its actually happened that way!

That it has an historical path does not mean that, when the process started, it was 'aimed' along that path. Evolution has not only occurred from unicellular organisms to humanity, it's branched into millions of forms of life, it may well have gone back and forth between unicellular and multicellular forms in various branches, it's been in and out of the oceans in various paths.

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As we have seen in the thread on 'A new discovery about evolution' .....it takes just one mutation to make the jump from unicellular to multicellular. A one in a trillion trillion chance!   This 'chance mutation' has to happen in millions of organisms for it to become a planet wide phenomenon.

No, the mutation has to happen in one and then be passed on to others through reproduction.

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From there it takes millions of other 'chance mutations' for additional complexity and emergent properties to arise.

Yes, and with billions of bacteria (say) reproducing multiple times per day for millions of years, you have many, many opportunities for one of those one in a trillion mutations to occur.

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This is the direction that evolution has taken.  Its not speculation. The fine tuning and tweaking all along the way is obvious.

The 'fine tuning' is still only evident if you presume arbitrarily that we are somehow significant, that we are the 'purpose' of evolution. You have no reason to presume that, we are just the outcome - a different path would have led to a different species, perhaps without the capacity to consider themselves the point of existence, or perhaps without the hubris.

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Now...why and how exactly this tweaking happens is a different argument which we can talk about as long as we want. No clear and ready answers are available. However merely mocking the God argument doesn't help.....nor does it help to attribute it all to 'chance'.  The answer doesn't have to be either of these two extremes.

It doesn't have to be at either of these two extremes, but we have evidence for one of them, and models based on one of them that have made successful predictions.

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Using 'survival instinct' as the answer don't help either...because 'survival' then becomes the objective and purpose of evolution.

No, it becomes the purpose of the individual, and it's become their purpose because it's the trait that's most likely to survive and be passed on. Competition for resources - which is inevitable in a system of limited energy input - inevitably leads to survival of the fittest.

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Why should anything survive?!

It shouldn't, it's good fortune on our part that it has. Who knows how many places in the universe life has emerged and then faltered? How many species on Earth have died away over time?

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From where and why did that 'instinct' come in?

From natural selection of random mutation, just like all the others.

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That all these millions of improbable mutations and emergent properties happened entirely due to random variations and chance environmental factors....is the biggest lie ever sold!

Your personal incredulity doesn't invalidate the explanation. We know that mutations happen. We know that organisms - the expression of those genetic mutations - compete in nature, and that fittest at a given moment are more likely to survive and reproduce, and therefore pass on those mutations. We can show the genetic trail of all the life we're aware of, chart the divergence of various groups based on common genetic traits. We've watched evolution occur in organisms. Evolution is a fact, and the theory of evolution is by far and away the best supported explanation for how it occurs.

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2. Religion has authority ...yes... but it is only authority that helps people to obey and follow the rules. More so when most people are unlettered and driven more by instinct than by reason. Following the rules over several generations is what leads to a civilized society  eventually.  Like educating children in school.

And like children in school, and society at large, you quickly get to the point where you expect people to behave without the threat of the big stick hanging over you, without someone watching your every move. Religion has served its time as a social watchdog, particular because it's failed to update its social mores from the relatively primitive ones instituted when they were invented.

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So...putting down 'religious authority' is as bad as putting down school authorities and rules.

There is a time for people to leave school, and leave that sort of authority...

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Secondly 'scientific authority' can be no less draconian than religious authority in many cases. It can sometimes be as misleading and rigid as the other.

There have been examples of people rigidly sticking to old ideas in the face of new evidence, yes. That is, though, diametrically opposed to the principles of scientific enquiry - it's human failing in an otherwise robust system. Religion is not self-reflective or self-updating in that fashion, change has to be forced into the system despite the evidence, because religion is built upon the presumption that it's 'THE' correct understanding.

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3. Religions are certainly not obsolete. You may not need religion but you cannot speak for 7 billion people worldwide.   Many billions of people still need religion and will always do.  Primary schools and nursery rhymes will never become obsolete. Same with religion.

People don't need religion. We can establish that from the perfectly satisfactory lives that people without religion lead. Whether people want religion or not is irrelevant to that, and whether they want it or not is not directly related to whether it is good for them individually or for society at large.

Both of those are irrelevant to whether the claims of religion are correct.

O.
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Jack Knave

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Re: 'Why humans find it hard to do away with religion'
« Reply #94 on: January 27, 2016, 04:08:06 PM »
Yep. In terms of there being a lack of belief in Booggles, as opposed to be a Boogglist. As long as there is a capability of belief, there is belief or not belief.
What is the point of that? That means my a....... items are endless! And it doesn't mean I'm pro any of them in any form or fashion whatsoever and so making the whole thing a futile exercise; which is what this argument has been about in that it has been implied that the baby is, in some fashion or other, pro atheist.

Jack Knave

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Re: 'Why humans find it hard to do away with religion'
« Reply #95 on: January 27, 2016, 04:12:48 PM »
The two are complementary - you either like tea or you don't. The reason you don't like tea is irrelevant: whether it's an active choice from experience or simply a lack of information doesn't change the fact that you don't put yourself in the group 'likes tea'.

O.
Neither do you put yourself in the group of 'Don't like tea' either. You are in the group ''What's tea?''

Nearly Sane

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Re: 'Why humans find it hard to do away with religion'
« Reply #96 on: January 27, 2016, 04:14:07 PM »
What is the point of that? That means my a....... items are endless! And it doesn't mean I'm pro any of them in any form or fashion whatsoever and so making the whole thing a futile exercise; which is what this argument has been about in that it has been implied that the baby is, in some fashion or other, pro atheist.

Which is why I added capable of belief and why I've argued that babies are not atheist in any sensible fashion.(though see the toddler prayer thread).

The list of things isn't endless. It's limited to the things that other people have belief in, and because of that  you are right. If there was no belief in god, there would be no sensible way of talking about atheists. However, someone who has no belief in gods, doesn't need to have heard of them to be classifiable in that circumstance as atheist.

Nearly Sane

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Re: 'Why humans find it hard to do away with religion'
« Reply #97 on: January 27, 2016, 04:15:26 PM »
Neither do you put yourself in the group of 'Don't like tea' either. You are in the group ''What's tea?''
and also the group of has no like for tea.

Outrider

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Re: 'Why humans find it hard to do away with religion'
« Reply #98 on: January 27, 2016, 04:17:58 PM »
Neither do you put yourself in the group of 'Don't like tea' either. You are in the group ''What's tea?''

I wouldn't put myself in the group 'dislikes tea', but I would be in the group 'doesn't like tea'. It's a subtle difference, but it's important, even more so when you look at unsubstantiable claims like gods.

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

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Jack Knave

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Re: 'Why humans find it hard to do away with religion'
« Reply #99 on: January 27, 2016, 04:24:00 PM »
You don't have to disagree with any given concept in order to be an atheist. Atheists are those people who don't subscribe to the theory of gods - you don't have to be aware of the concept, you don't have to have actively rejected the theory, you just have to not self-subscribe as a believer.

No, there aren't. You are pitching atheism as an active rejection, and it isn't (necessarily). It's the group of all the people who aren't theists.

O.
But if you have absolutely no idea what a theist or Gods are then you can't pitch anything on the issue whatsoever. You are mute on the subject.

I disagree, atheism is an active rejection based on ones experience and understanding of the issue.