Author Topic: Incest  (Read 21687 times)

Owlswing

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Re: Incest
« Reply #75 on: February 10, 2016, 11:53:58 AM »
JWs consider themselves to be Christian but they are certainly not mainstream and the majority of Christians do not consider JWs to be fellow Christians.  Nevertheless they knock on doors and put leaflets through the letter box.  In fairness to them, if you are not interested they go away quite politely.

Back to topic, the ancient Egyptians practised incest in that royal siblings married eachother.  I don't know when that changed.

Wasn't there a Pharoah who facial features were 'odd', Atenarten or some such - could his deformity have brought about the end of the practice?
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floo

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Re: Incest
« Reply #76 on: February 10, 2016, 11:59:54 AM »
I don't care what the nasty JW cult classify themselves as, I just know I am allergic to their nastiness. >:( As I have mentioned before, a couple of the cults acolytes turned up on our doorstep 30 years ago, and told me our adopted Down's Syndrome baby son would have been better off dead rather than having the life saving blood transfusion he had just received! >:(

Owlswing

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Re: Incest
« Reply #77 on: February 10, 2016, 12:04:00 PM »
I don't care what the nasty JW cult classify themselves as, I just know I am allergic to their nastiness. >:( As I have mentioned before, a couple of the cults acolytes turned up on our doorstep 30 years ago, and told me our adopted Down's Syndrome baby son would have been better off dead rather than having the life saving blood transfusion he had just received! >:(

I just wear my pentacle and my mother's Star of David when I answer the door - they don't stay long.
The Holy Bible, probably the most diabolical work of fiction ever to be visited upon mankind.

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Nearly Sane

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Re: Incest
« Reply #78 on: February 10, 2016, 12:08:04 PM »
Wasn't there a Pharoah who facial features were 'odd', Atenarten or some such - could his deformity have brought about the end of the practice?

Nope, it was still going on at the time of Cleopatra, it wasn't the incest that stopped it was the monarchy after Octavian's defeat of her and Tony.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2016, 12:15:04 PM by Nearly Sane »

Owlswing

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Re: Incest
« Reply #79 on: February 10, 2016, 12:18:01 PM »
Nope, it was still going on at the time of Cleopatra, it wasn't the incest that stopped it was the monarchy after Octavian's defeat of her and Tony.

Thanks for that. It was a nice theory while it lasted!
The Holy Bible, probably the most diabolical work of fiction ever to be visited upon mankind.

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Nearly Sane

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Re: Incest
« Reply #80 on: February 10, 2016, 12:31:50 PM »
Thanks for that. It was a nice theory while it lasted!
Thinking about it though there I possibly a bit more support for your point. While it is correct that the Ptolemy dynasty were incestuous, they are latecomers being descended from Alexander's general, and I presume followed the tradition of incest (my interests generally relate to the Cleopatra period as I look at it from an interest in Rome). The earlier dynasties certainly had problems and iirc Tutankhamen was possibly the last of his dynasty, and it might have been related to infertility due to inbreeding. So while it may not have died out until the end of the Egyptian monarchy, it may have caused the end of some dynasties. It's an intriguing subject that I will look into more because of your theory


Of course, the whole intermarriage thing continued in a lot of monarchies, see the Hapsburg lip, and the spread of Our own dear Vicky's genes amongst the royal houses. Arguably haemophilia contributed to the Russian revolution.

Owlswing

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Re: Incest
« Reply #81 on: February 10, 2016, 02:11:18 PM »
Thinking about it though there I possibly a bit more support for your point. While it is correct that the Ptolemy dynasty were incestuous, they are latecomers being descended from Alexander's general, and I presume followed the tradition of incest (my interests generally relate to the Cleopatra period as I look at it from an interest in Rome). The earlier dynasties certainly had problems and iirc Tutankhamen was possibly the last of his dynasty, and it might have been related to infertility due to inbreeding. So while it may not have died out until the end of the Egyptian monarchy, it may have caused the end of some dynasties. It's an intriguing subject that I will look into more because of your theory


Of course, the whole intermarriage thing continued in a lot of monarchies, see the Hapsburg lip, and the spread of Our own dear Vicky's genes amongst the royal houses. Arguably haemophilia contributed to the Russian revolution.

Good luck with nthat!

I wish I could find time to return to the British Library and constinue my study of thr hoistory of the Craft.

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The Holy Bible, probably the most diabolical work of fiction ever to be visited upon mankind.

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Sebastian Toe

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Re: Incest
« Reply #82 on: February 10, 2016, 06:54:31 PM »
I just wear my pentacle and my mother's Star of David when I answer the door - they don't stay long.
Wot, no clothes?  :-[ no wonder!
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Incest
« Reply #83 on: February 10, 2016, 06:55:47 PM »
Wot, no clothes?  :-[ no wonder!

And where does he wear the pentacle?

wigginhall

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Re: Incest
« Reply #84 on: February 10, 2016, 07:16:56 PM »
I don't care what the nasty JW cult classify themselves as, I just know I am allergic to their nastiness. >:( As I have mentioned before, a couple of the cults acolytes turned up on our doorstep 30 years ago, and told me our adopted Down's Syndrome baby son would have been better off dead rather than having the life saving blood transfusion he had just received! >:(

Did they really, Floo?  The sheer wickedness done in the name of religion, is astonishing. 
They were the footprints of a gigantic hound!

Shaker

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Re: Incest
« Reply #85 on: February 10, 2016, 08:07:20 PM »
"Men never do evil as completely or as cheerfully as when they do it in the name of religion." - Pascal

Not the quote thread, but irresistibly reminded of this.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Brownie

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Re: Incest
« Reply #86 on: February 10, 2016, 08:21:59 PM »
That is so true and I often wonder why their conscience does not bother them?  I suppose they would say the conscience has to be ''informed''.  It's an easy way out to fall back on religious teachings when saying something unpalateable.

However I have discoursed with several Jehovah's Witnesses and, whatever I feel about their religion, I've not known them to pass judgement on people outside their faith.   I did ask once what a JW believed would happen to them if they were treated with a blood transfusion as an emergency while they were unconscious and she replied that the Lord would not hold anything against her that she did not consent to.  Likewise adults usually make decisions for children, so I wonder why the JWs whom floo encountered were so unpleasant - and how did they know about her son having a transfusion?  It's not a good idea to write off an entire group of people as ''nasty'' because of one experience.

Regarding incest, Jehovah's Witnesses take the same stance as mainstream Christians, based on Leviticus.
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Shaker

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Re: Incest
« Reply #87 on: February 10, 2016, 08:25:44 PM »
That is so true and I often wonder why their conscience does not bother them?  I suppose they would say the conscience has to be ''informed''.  It's an easy way out to fall back on religious teachings when saying something unpalateable.
I fear that any over-arching ideology, religious or political, can become a substitute for basic human empathy if you're sufficiently in thrall to it and allow it to.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Owlswing

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Re: Incest
« Reply #88 on: February 10, 2016, 10:31:37 PM »
Hope doesn't believe in a literal flood where only 8 people survived. That is the why he uses the phrase 'theological' as opposed to literal. He has covered this in detail in posts to you.

And to Hope, it is clear in floo's use of creationist in the OP she is talking about a literalist YEC, and I know you know that so stop playing dumb as if it's clever, it's not even big.

Nearly Sane - Hope's bodyguard.
The Holy Bible, probably the most diabolical work of fiction ever to be visited upon mankind.

An it harm none, do what you will; an it harm some, do what you must!

Nearly Sane

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Re: Incest
« Reply #89 on: February 11, 2016, 08:15:34 AM »
Nearly Sane - Hope's bodyguard.

Given you quoted a post where I told Hope off for being disingenuous, you are now just making yourself look stupid.

Owlswing

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Re: Incest
« Reply #90 on: February 11, 2016, 02:16:19 PM »
Given you quoted a post where I told Hope off for being disingenuous, you are now just making yourself look stupid.

Nothing stops a bodyguard from telling his boss when he has done something wrong.
The Holy Bible, probably the most diabolical work of fiction ever to be visited upon mankind.

An it harm none, do what you will; an it harm some, do what you must!

Nearly Sane

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Re: Incest
« Reply #91 on: February 11, 2016, 03:41:22 PM »
Nothing stops a bodyguard from telling his boss when he has done something wrong.

I forgive you

Owlswing

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Re: Incest
« Reply #92 on: February 11, 2016, 03:45:45 PM »

I forgive you


Forgive . . . I, at this moment (for reasons I am unable to publish) would much prefer a glass of Chivas, Moniak or Courviosier (sic)!
The Holy Bible, probably the most diabolical work of fiction ever to be visited upon mankind.

An it harm none, do what you will; an it harm some, do what you must!

Dicky Underpants

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Re: Incest
« Reply #93 on: February 11, 2016, 03:49:53 PM »
Nothing stops a bodyguard from telling his boss when he has done something wrong.

NearlySane is very much his own man. I don't think taking orders from Hope is quite his style - he is in fact one of the few with the patience to keep pointing out the constantly repeated errors in Hope's arguments (two other prominent exemplars of such patience being Shaker and bluehillside).
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jeremyp

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Re: Incest
« Reply #94 on: February 11, 2016, 03:55:23 PM »
NearlySane is very much his own man. I don't think taking orders from Hope is quite his style - he is in fact one of the few with the patience to keep pointing out the constantly repeated errors in Hope's arguments (two other prominent exemplars of such patience being Shaker and bluehillside).

I must admit I was getting a bit confused. Owlswing was claiming NS and Hope were buddies but my recollection is that NS generally calls Hope out on the wrongness of his posts pretty much all the time.
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Owlswing

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Re: Incest
« Reply #95 on: February 11, 2016, 03:57:16 PM »
I must admit I was getting a bit confused. Owlswing was claiming NS and Hope were buddies but my recollection is that NS generally calls Hope out on the wrongness of his posts pretty much all the time.

All right! I'll shut up!
The Holy Bible, probably the most diabolical work of fiction ever to be visited upon mankind.

An it harm none, do what you will; an it harm some, do what you must!

Shaker

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Re: Incest
« Reply #96 on: February 11, 2016, 05:09:34 PM »
NearlySane is very much his own man. I don't think taking orders from Hope is quite his style - he is in fact one of the few with the patience to keep pointing out the constantly repeated errors in Hope's arguments (two other prominent exemplars of such patience being Shaker and bluehillside).
That's the first and potentially the last time that the words patience and Shaker have or will appear connected in a sentence.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

OH MY WORLD!

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Re: Incest
« Reply #97 on: February 12, 2016, 01:48:52 AM »
"All right! I'll shut up!"

All right let's party!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msSc7Mv0QHY

OH MY WORLD!

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Re: Incest
« Reply #98 on: February 12, 2016, 02:49:02 AM »
Shaker,

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Sassy

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Re: Incest
« Reply #99 on: February 12, 2016, 08:48:29 AM »
Weren't Abraham and Sarah in an incestuous marriage?

Wasn't this marriage approved and blessed by God?

Quote
King James Bible
And yet indeed she is my sister; she is the daughter of my father, but not the daughter of my mother; and she became my wife.

Same Father not same mother.

The laws did not exist in the time of Abraham (Abram) and Sarah (Sara).

So they did not have an incestuous marriage because there was no law about those things at that time.

Leviticus 18:8-18King James Version (KJV)

8 The nakedness of thy father's wife shalt thou not uncover: it is thy father's nakedness.

9 The nakedness of thy sister, the daughter of thy father, or daughter of thy mother, whether she be born at home, or born abroad, even their nakedness thou shalt not uncover.

10 The nakedness of thy son's daughter, or of thy daughter's daughter, even their nakedness thou shalt not uncover: for theirs is thine own nakedness.

11 The nakedness of thy father's wife's daughter, begotten of thy father, she is thy sister, thou shalt not uncover her nakedness.

12 Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy father's sister: she is thy father's near kinswoman.

13 Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy mother's sister: for she is thy mother's near kinswoman.

14 Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy father's brother, thou shalt not approach to his wife: she is thine aunt.

15 Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy daughter in law: she is thy son's wife; thou shalt not uncover her nakedness.

16 Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy brother's wife: it is thy brother's nakedness.

17 Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of a woman and her daughter, neither shalt thou take her son's daughter, or her daughter's daughter, to uncover her nakedness; for they are her near kinswomen: it is wickedness.

18 Neither shalt thou take a wife to her sister, to vex her, to uncover her nakedness, beside the other in her life time.


In fact it was God who made it all stop by telling them not to do the things they once did.  It is like the fall, Adam could not die till he had sinned. Before the fall he had the right to eat of any tree including the tree of life.
Quote

9 And out of the ground made the Lord God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

after the fall:-

Quote
22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

23 Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

Had man not eaten from the tree of knowledge of Good and Evil, he would never have known if he had done any wrong.
But now he knew and in his fallen state he could not eat from the tree of life.

Abraham could not be guilty of incest as there was no law or knowledge it was wrong in his time.
Intermarriage happened everywhere. But when God brought the laws to his people then it stopped and it then became wrong.

Once they had the knowledge they could no longer do those things...



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