Incest (discussion moved from thread on the the Christian Topic)

[wigginhall]

Procedures could be set up to ensure the marriage was freely accepted by the daughter.

That's cloud cuckoo land.  Young girls can be manipulated by older fathers to agree to stuff, in fact, older men, who are not fathers, as we see with all the abuse cases and grooming cases.   In fact, young guys are susceptible as well, as people of that age often want to please.   This is one reason that sexual abuse is so hard to get to grips with, as the victim can become traumatized and mesmerized.

[Leonard James]

That's cloud cuckoo land.  Young girls can be manipulated by older fathers to agree to stuff, in fact, older men, who are not fathers, as we see with all the abuse cases and grooming cases.   In fact, young guys are susceptible as well, as people of that age often want to please.   This is one reason that sexual abuse is so hard to get to grips with, as the victim can become traumatized and mesmerized.

Agreed, but that applies to all cases of abuse, not just incest.

[wigginhall]

Agreed, but that applies to all cases of abuse, not just incest.

But incest lends an extra degree of manipulation to it, as young people often want to please their parents.   It will never happen, as too many boundaries are smashed by it, and children need boundaries. 

[Leonard James]

But incest lends an extra degree of manipulation to it, as young people often want to please their parents.   It will never happen, as too many boundaries are smashed by it, and children need boundaries.

Well, that doesn't stop me thinking otherwise! 

[Leonard James]

I'm going now! You lot made me miss my siesta yesterday, and I ain't having it!

[Nearly Sane]

It boils down to the greater good, I suppose. The only way to find out is to try it for a period.

Given the numbers of people who are abused by family members, and find it difficult to speak out, and how much harder this would make it, as to oppose the numbers not getting some nookie from someone, I would really rather not.

We are only just, if we are lucky, getting to the stage where sexual abuse is being able to be talked to it. I see your suggestion as an abusers charter.

[Nearly Sane]

Agreed, but that applies to all cases of abuse, not just incest.

And as already pointed out multiple times, the complex power relationship on a family makes it different. That others are abused does not mean you should make it easier for another set of abusers.

[Gordon]

I'd have to say, as the father of two daughters, that I can't imagine that the relationship between a father and daughter, beginning as it does from birth, throughout childhood and into adulthood (as in my case) would ever progress in the direction of incest - this would no longer be a father/daughter relationship: it would be a betrayal by the father and a failure on his part to both nurture and respect his female children.

I can't imagine any father of daughters (and there are several of us here) viewing the idea that incest in some circumstances might ever be acceptable: just no! 

[Nearly Sane]

And yet we know that such abuse happens, Gordon, and making it easier to exploit that relationship really does not seem the way to go
 As for sibling relationships while they may be more likely to be equal, again differing ages and dynamics in families can change that. How would you feel if one sibling was 15 years younger and had been effectively raised by the older sibling?

As previously said, the law is a blunt tool but in this case I think it has to err on the side of those who could be, and have been exploited and abused.

[Gordon]

And yet we know that such abuse happens, Gordon, and making it easier to exploit that relationship really does not seem the way to go
 As for sibling relationships while they may be more likely to be equal, again differing ages and dynamics in families can change that. How would you feel if one sibling was 15 years younger and had been effectively raised by the older sibling?

As previously said, the law is a blunt tool but in this case I think it has to err on the side of those who could be, and have been exploited and abused.

In the case of siblings, especially where there is an age difference involved and older siblings in a sense care for their younger brothers and sisters, I'd say that incest wouldn't be a feature of a sibling relationship without it no longer being a sibling relationship: incest would change the nature of the relationship where it occurs between siblings just as it does between parent and child.

So I agree: the law needs to protect the vulnerable in the first instance.

[Gordon]

Moderator:

Just to say that the posts prior to this one are about the civil as opposed to Christian aspects of incest that were split from the thread in the Christian Topic and placed here.

[wigginhall]

Given the numbers of people who are abused by family members, and find it difficult to speak out, and how much harder this would make it, as to oppose the numbers not getting some nookie from someone, I would really rather not.

We are only just, if we are lucky, getting to the stage where sexual abuse is being able to be talked to it. I see your suggestion as an abusers charter.

Yes, it's a no-brainer.  Relaxing the incest laws would set back the protection of children and young people by centuries.   As you say, we are only just beginning to talk about sexual abuse, and admit that it is endemic.    But in a sense, nobody has a clue as to how to deal with it, and this would make it worse.  The idea of investigating a father/daughter relationship to see if the daughter was consenting, is farcical - who on earth would this?   Social services need this like a hole in the head.

[Nearly Sane]

Yes, it's a no-brainer.  Relaxing the incest laws would set back the protection of children and young people by centuries.   As you say, we are only just beginning to talk about sexual abuse, and admit that it is endemic.    But in a sense, nobody has a clue as to how to deal with it, and this would make it worse.  The idea of investigating a father/daughter relationship to see if the daughter was consenting, is farcical - who on earth would this?   Social services need this like a hole in the head.

Sexual abuse of all types is a nightmare from a legal viewpoint. The offence of taking someone's car without consenr, Twokking, is easy because you can see that unless there wasn't a previous relationship, you driving about on someone's car when they don't know you, is an open and shut case almost all of the time
 However in the case of rape or abuse, people have sex with people they didn't know as a normal course of events. So trying to prove rape in that case such harder.


So take that into a family situation where twokking would actually be hard to prove, overlay that with statistics on sexual abuse within family and then work out quite how hard that would be to prove and then add in the taboo in even reporting this stuff that applies to victims.


Absolutely, wigginhall, this would be a nightmare for social services.

[floo]

In theory it would be possible to commit incest but be unaware of the fact you were a sibling of the person with whom you were having sex, especially if they were the product of sperm donation. I read on an American forum that one sperm donor donated sperm 400 times. I don't think they would be permitted to be so prolific in the UK?

[Nearly Sane]

In theory it would be possible to commit incest but be unaware of the fact you were a sibling of the person with whom you were having sex, especially if they were the product of sperm donation. I read on an American forum that one sperm donor donated sperm 400 times. I don't think they would be permitted to be so prolific in the UK?

Sperm donation in this way would not be an act of incest in law.

Or indeed sex, so you wouldn't be having sex and you wouldn't even be evolving faster if you did.

[floo]

Sperm donation in this way would not be an act of incest in law.

Or indeed sex, so you wouldn't be having sex and you wouldn't even be evolving faster if you did.

Ehhhhhhhhhhhh?

If a man and woman had been created by their mothers using sperm from the same donor they would be half brother and sister. Therefore, in theory, they would be committing incest if they had a sexual relationship.

[Gordon]

Ehhhhhhhhhhhh?

Therefore, in theory, they would be committing incest if they had a sexual relationship.

But they didn't!

[Nearly Sane]

Ehhhhhhhhhhhh?

If a man and woman had been created by their mothers using sperm from the same donor they would be half brother and sister. Therefore, in theory, they would be committing incest if they had a sexual relationship.

No, incest is about a sexual act. You could argue it 'theoretically' though it isn't clear what you mean by that. But in legal terms it isn't incest. No mens rea, you see.

[floo]

If a half brother and sister, whose father was a sperm donor, met up unknowing that they were related and had sex, wouldn't that be technically incest?

[Nearly Sane]

If a half brother and sister, whose father was a sperm donor, met up unknowing that they were related and had sex, wouldn't that be technically incest?

First of all this has nothing to do with your previous position that sperm donation could be incestb(which it wouldn't be) - do you understand that?

As for the specific, the sperm donation itself has no effect, if the siblings are siblings in this sense then technically it would be incest but it has nothing to do wit your posts about sperm donation up to now.

[Owlswing]

Being an oldie - and having ignored this thread almost since its inception - a nasty little memory has been nagging away at what is laughingly referred to as my brain.

May 1958 - total uproar!

Jerry Lee lewis was to do a six-week tour of Britain.

He was accompanied by a young girl - Myra, 13 years old - a reporter from the Mirror asked her who she was and she announced that she was Jerry's wife.

The excrement hit the rotary ventilation device in life-threatening clumps. Not only was she only 13 but she was his first cousin.

The tour ended abruptly after three shows, as did any chance of Jerry Lee ever returning to the UK.

From some of the posts here attitudes have not changed much since 1958.

I personally would like to see the charge of incest only ever applied if one or other party is under the age of consent or, as an adult, considered to be psychologically incapable of making an informed decision in the matter or if either of these consitions had existed at the start of the relationship.

[Shaker]

In terms of family relationship and age the marriage was at that time perfectly legal in the state where JLL lived, of course. (Tennessee, perhaps?).

[Owlswing]

In terms of family relationship and age the marriage was at that time perfectly legal in the state where JLL lived, of course. (Tennessee, perhaps?).

Mississippi actually - but yes, it was totally acceptable and not considered abnormal. JLL himself was first married at 14.

The shit didn't hit the fan until JLL hit the UK!

(Moderator - we really do need a spellchecker on this forum! - And I do not mean a censor on my in-circle activities!)

[Leonard James]

I personally would like to see the charge of incest only ever applied if one or other party is under the age of consent or, as an adult, considered to be psychologically incapable of making an informed decision in the matter or if either of these conditions had existed at the start of the relationship.

That is the most sensible post I've seen on this thread.

[Owlswing]

That is the most sensible post I've seen on this thread.

Thank you Sir.

I have a basin of water and a towel ready for the crap that is likely to be the result of both our posts. I just thank all the powers that be that Mary Whitehouse now sits on the right hand of her God!

And you can interpret the last part of the last sentence how you will!