Author Topic: "Bill of Shame"  (Read 13507 times)

Shaker

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Re: "Bill of Shame"
« Reply #75 on: January 27, 2016, 11:53:48 AM »
Currently, there is a belief amongst many that science is, or at least will be able to answer all our questions.

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Nearly Sane

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Re: "Bill of Shame"
« Reply #76 on: January 27, 2016, 11:58:10 AM »
Great minds, wiggles (or is it fools seldom differ?  :D  Anywho). I was thinking of Luther just a day or two ago, although in relation to Alan Burns rather than ad_o, thinking how much they have in common despite Alan's Catholicism - specifically reason being the devil's whore and what have you. The same appraisal of rational thought as a tool of Old Nick.


Of course, Luther conversed with the devil whilst on the cludgie

Shaker

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Re: "Bill of Shame"
« Reply #77 on: January 27, 2016, 11:59:13 AM »

Of course, Luther conversed with the devil whilst on the cludgie
Hardly surprising - he had terrible trouble with the Chalfonts, I gather.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2016, 12:05:16 PM by Shaker »
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Hope

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Re: "Bill of Shame"
« Reply #79 on: January 27, 2016, 12:28:16 PM »
Very, very few individuals have stood in the way of progress on all these issues, but the organised religions have.
But at the same time, organised religions have often been at the forefront of the developments.  For instance, the Baptist tradition in Britain has been ordaining women since the 1920s.  The Church of England ordained their first deaconess as early as 1862.

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On women's rights, gay rights and racial equality the formal religious structures have consistently acted against the forces of progress.
See above for the matter of women's rights - remembering that matters such as abortion are treated as women's rights but actually impact on men just as much.  Racial equality has also been something that the churches have been in the forefront of.

Whilst many like to put gay rights in the same category as these other two, they aren't because they are more of a behavioural issue than a purely genetic one.

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Christianity is still, in the main, a homophobic, misogynistic organisation, and they consider that to be divinely inspired.
That might be the case with the Roman Catholic church, but ever since I was born, most Protestant denominations have employed women and non-whites alongside men in the various areas of ministry.  They have also encouraged women to take on many of the lay roles without which any church or congregation can't exist.

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It's questionable whether the Anglican acceptance of women and gay people is part of their Christianity or in spite of it.
As someone brought up in the Anglican denomnation, I can inform you their acceptance of women clergy is part of their Christianity - men have been pushing for it for over 50 years, and often the stumbling block was the women themselves.  So is their acceptance of gay people, who are - after all - human beings like everyone else.
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Shaker

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Re: "Bill of Shame"
« Reply #80 on: January 27, 2016, 12:30:42 PM »
Christianity from its beginning was pacifict whereas Mohammed spread his religion with the sword. And yet again, what has burning heretics have to do with Orthodoxy or even pre-schism Rome?

Orthodoxy merely happens to be flavour of the month with you pro. tem. but since these things are subject to change whenever the wind changes direction that counts for nought. What Orthodoxy shares with Rome pre or post-schism is the same sclerotic idiocy, the same autocracy and the same tedious, tawdry but ultimately tragic tendency to talk of such nonsensical babble as "heresy" and "schism" - in other words, one set of people here with batty beliefs complaining that another set of people with very slightly different but no less batty beliefs over there don't share their batty beliefs, a dismal phenomenon for which Freud coined the term "the narcissism of small differences."
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Shaker

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Re: "Bill of Shame"
« Reply #81 on: January 27, 2016, 12:31:48 PM »
So is their acceptance of gay people, who are - after all - human beings like everyone else.
Until and unless they want to get married, right? Since that's a (I quote) "mirage" and a form of "so-called equality" not to be compared to "real marriage."

http://www.religionethics.co.uk/index.php?topic=11463.msg584387#msg584387
« Last Edit: January 27, 2016, 12:40:54 PM by Shaker »
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ad_orientem

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Re: "Bill of Shame"
« Reply #82 on: January 27, 2016, 01:02:56 PM »
Orthodoxy merely happens to be flavour of the month with you pro. tem. but since these things are subject to change whenever the wind changes direction that counts for nought. What Orthodoxy shares with Rome pre or post-schism is the same sclerotic idiocy, the same autocracy and the same tedious, tawdry but ultimately tragic tendency to talk of such nonsensical babble as "heresy" and "schism" - in other words, one set of people here with batty beliefs complaining that another set of people with very slightly different but no less batty beliefs over there don't share their batty beliefs, a dismal phenomenon for which Freud coined the term "the narcissism of small differences."

You auote Freud and call me batty? The geezer was sick in the head.
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Outrider

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Re: "Bill of Shame"
« Reply #83 on: January 27, 2016, 01:10:19 PM »
But at the same time, organised religions have often been at the forefront of the developments.  For instance, the Baptist tradition in Britain has been ordaining women since the 1920s.

Islam? Hinduism? Shinto? Even then, what proportion of Christianity in the UK is Baptist? What about the Baptist traditions in other countries? And even if ordination was achieved, that doesn't in any way justify the religious depiction of gender roles.

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The Church of England ordained their first deaconess as early as 1862.

And yet when did their first lady Bishop arrive?

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See above for the matter of women's rights - remembering that matters such as abortion are treated as women's rights but actually impact on men just as much.

No, they don't impact on men anywhere near as much, in part because of social attitudes towards the differences in men's and women's roles in child-care and child-rearing (largely reinforced by traditional religious teachings) and in part because of the biological reality that pregnancy has to involve a woman throughout, whereas men are not required after the first few moments.

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Racial equality has also been something that the churches have been in the forefront of.

Really? Is that why so many Christians were actively involved in the slave trade? There is nothing in the scripture that prohibits slavery, whilst there are some references to acceptable behaviour of and towards slaves. Wilberforce - a Christian, admittedly - was motivated to campaign against the slave trade, but I see this as an example of culture civilising religion; certainly, at the time, the establishment church stood against him.

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Whilst many like to put gay rights in the same category as these other two, they aren't because they are more of a behavioural issue than a purely genetic one.

Most people put them in the same category as they are areas where people are discriminated against without justification - it doesn't actually matter whether homosexuality is inherited, nurtured, accidental or a combination of all three. Typically, you find, people who try to make that sort of differentiation are people who are trying to justify discrimination - and many of those are religious, particularly Christian.

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That might be the case with the Roman Catholic church, but ever since I was born, most Protestant denominations have employed women and non-whites alongside men in the various areas of ministry.

'In various areas'... but not all, right?


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They have also encouraged women to take on many of the lay roles without which any church or congregation can't exist.

So they can do the work, but they can't have the say or the influence.

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As someone brought up in the Anglican denomnation, I can inform you their acceptance of women clergy is part of their Christianity - men have been pushing for it for over 50 years, and often the stumbling block was the women themselves.

Often the stumbling block was the teaching and the scripture, let's not forget - Timothy 2:12, is it? "But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence". You might well suggest that this has been taken out of context, and that may be so, but it doesn't actually change the fact that it has been deployed in that way for centuries, and it's those centuries of formative influence in our culture that modern society has been railing against in order to achieve the first glimmers of parity that you are lauding as somehow equally Christian.

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So is their acceptance of gay people, who are - after all - human beings like everyone else.

Their acceptance of gay people to the point where they aren't allowed to get married, and when congregations do allow it they are punished and excluded for the temerity of treating people equally...

O.
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Shaker

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Re: "Bill of Shame"
« Reply #84 on: January 27, 2016, 01:12:50 PM »
You auote Freud and call me batty?
Got it in one.
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The geezer was sick in the head.
Oh did RT tell you that too? Must be legit ::)

Since you seem to be big on dismissing a source on precisely zero grounds (although the fact he was not only a staunch atheist but Jewish doubtless feeds into it), consider Swift - arguably the finest exponent of satire in the English language - and his Big Endians and Little Endians for another example of precisely the same dingbat poltroonery.

Knew what he was on about, did Jonny Swift. And not Jewish or an atheist at all.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2016, 01:36:56 PM by Shaker »
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: "Bill of Shame"
« Reply #85 on: January 27, 2016, 04:59:13 PM »
Sorry to disappoint you, PD; whilst attendance at church and chapel was reasonable, many of those who attended did so because it was the done thing to do, much as was the case in the latter part of the 20th Century.  The fact that some 100K people became Christians over the period of a year tells its own story.  What is also interesting is that the revival 'coincided with the rise of the labour movement, socialism, and a general disaffection with religion among the working class and youths. (Wikipedia)
So as I suspected no evidence at all to back up your claim.

There are plenty of credible sources to back up my view of change in religiosity from 1900-ish to today. Here is one such source - not from a 'wicked' atheist site, but a rather overtly religiously oriented source:

http://faithsurvey.co.uk/download/csintro.pdf

Best to check out figure 2 which indicated church membership as a proportion of the overall population - what it shows is exactly as I described, a relatively slow decline from 1900 to about 1960 (declining from about 33% to about 22%) and then a more rapid decline thereafter, with levels currently at about 10%.

The problem with your prediction is that faith doesn't necessarily follow statistical norms.  Just because our generation and that following us have decided to discard religion, there is no automatic dscarding of it by the next.  Currently, there is a belief amongst many that science is, or at least will be able to answer all our questions.  If that certainty becomes less 'certain', then interest in matters spiritual could return and become more influential in people's lives.  Similarly, if religious groups are seen to be at the forefront of working on issues that the government can't or choose not to - and in many places, that is what is happening even today, things could change.
Yes faith does follow such statistical norms - why because there are tiny proportions of people who change faith as adults and their effects broadly cancel out (actually a slight drift toward non religiosity). So if you survey the current cohort of 20 to 30 year olds you can be exceptionally confident that their overall levels of religiosity if you survey them again in 40 years time when they are 60-70 years old will be no higher than it is now.

And as currently each younger age cohort is less religious than the next older (so 20-30 year olds are less religious than 30-40 year olds who are less religious than 40-50 year olds and so on) you can confidently predict religiosity for decades to come. And for there even to be a freeze on the decline (not an increase note), the current 10-20 year old cohort are going to need to be as religious as the current 70-80s who they will replace as adults in the next few years. That isn't going to happen Hope and I think you know it.

As I've said previously the only 'perturbing' effect on this entirely predictable situation is immigration of highly religious (or highly non religious groups) to a level that affects overall trends. But this would have to be at an astonishing level to actually change things - so a good example being the massive influx from Poland in the mid noughties. Did this stop the decline - nope, perhaps slowed it a touch and for a brief few years allowed RCC attendance levels to remain broadly static, but the ever onward overall decline continued.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: "Bill of Shame"
« Reply #86 on: January 27, 2016, 05:11:27 PM »
But at the same time, organised religions have often been at the forefront of the developments.  For instance, the Baptist tradition in Britain has been ordaining women since the 1920s.  The Church of England ordained their first deaconess as early as 1862.
Sorry but the notion that christianity was (or is) somehow at the forefront of equality for women is laughable.

Let's not forget that the RCC still refuses to allow any women to be priests and therefore not only are they debarred from that role, they also are from higher levels of the organisation where the power resides - so how many women voted for the current Pope (answers on a postcard).

The CofE has only recently (in equality terms) allowed women to be priests and only in recent months allowed them to be Bishops, and still there isn't equality as they give congregations the right to reject being under a woman Bishop.

Virtually every other organisation has, on a point of policy, ensured that there is no difference in the ability to be in a particular role, or the authority in that role, or remuneration depending on gender. Now many organisations don't achieve equality in practice, albeit believe in it in principle and policy. The major christian churches don't even agree on policy, let alone practice.

Hope

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Re: "Bill of Shame"
« Reply #87 on: January 28, 2016, 02:52:13 PM »
Sorry but the notion that christianity was (or is) somehow at the forefront of equality for women is laughable.
Well, there is good evidence that there were women in leadership of the early Church, there is evidence that women were involved in education and healthcare work under the auspices of the church long before they were within any secular such work.  The Salvation Army has appointed both men and women to 'official' positions (no 'ordination' in the S.A.) from its inception.  As I pointed out in my previous post, the CofE has ordained deaconesses since the mid-19th century.

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Let's not forget that the RCC still refuses to allow any women to be priests and therefore not only are they debarred from that role, they also are from higher levels of the organisation where the power resides - so how many women voted for the current Pope (answers on a postcard).
The problem with this argument is that taking the RCC as representative of the Christian Church as a whole is rather like taking Donald Trump as representative of the American electorate as a whole.  That said, even the RCC has given women roles of authority in a host of areas of work.  I happen to agree that the RCC has no case NOT to allow women into the priesthood, but ignoring the other things tht it has allowed them to do, long before secular society even existed has to be acknowledged.

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The CofE has only recently (in equality terms) allowed women to be priests and only in recent months allowed them to be Bishops, and still there isn't equality as they give congregations the right to reject being under a woman Bishop.
The question then is whether or not the ordained priesthood, male or female, in its current nature is actually a Biblical concept.  If it isn't then what value the 'new' equality?  Remember that we are told that all are equal in God's sight, that there are no male or female in Christ and that the church as a whole is a 'royal priesthood'.

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Virtually every other organisation has, on a point of policy, ensured that there is no difference in the ability to be in a particular role, or the authority in that role, or remuneration depending on gender. Now many organisations don't achieve equality in practice, albeit believe in it in principle and policy. The major christian churches don't even agree on policy, let alone practice.
I think I prefer actuality than theoretical policy.
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