Author Topic: A two year old child's prayer!  (Read 5658 times)

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 64369
Re: A two year old child's prayer!
« Reply #25 on: January 27, 2016, 04:02:53 PM »
Good read here.

http://deltaflute.blogspot.co.uk/2011/10/abstract-thinking-cognitive-development.html?m=1

Which is part of my issue with this 'abstract god' idea, what is abstract about any god while it has any specificity? Surely the claim that the child is praying to some god is precisely a denial of 'abstractness'.  Just  to note I know this isn't your position that the kid is doing it, using your post and the excellent link to speculate.  All gods are in their specificity concrete, the idea of 'god' might be an abstract though even that feels a bit dodgy. What is an abstract toddler?

Sriram

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8253
    • Spirituality & Science
Re: A two year old child's prayer!
« Reply #26 on: January 27, 2016, 04:07:43 PM »
Which is part of my issue with this 'abstract god' idea, what is abstract about any god while it has any specificity? Surely the claim that the child is praying to some god is precisely a denial of 'abstractness'.  Just  to note I know this isn't your position that the kid is doing it, using your post and the excellent link to speculate.  All gods are in their specificity concrete, the idea of 'god' might be an abstract though even that feels a bit dodgy. What is an abstract toddler?


Ok...maybe I should be answering that.

I mentioned 'abstract' because the child wasn't praying to any concrete idol or picture. It was praying in the dark to an invisible entity.  That is why I used the word 'abstract'.

King Oberon

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3193
  • Spread your wings and let the fairy in you fly!
Re: A two year old child's prayer!
« Reply #27 on: January 27, 2016, 04:10:01 PM »
The usual suspects will be along in a mo with cries of indoctrination and child cruelty.

Indoctrination, child cruelty  :)

Strange that you brought that up Gonners perhaps your getting to the truth of religion after all  ;D

Susan children can imagine anything they are told about... Indoctrination, child cruelty!

I believe in everything until it's disproved. So I believe in fairies, the myths, dragons. It all exists, even if it's in your mind. Who's to say that dreams and nightmares aren't as real as the here and now?

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 64369
Re: A two year old child's prayer!
« Reply #28 on: January 27, 2016, 04:22:23 PM »

Ok...maybe I should be answering that.

I mentioned 'abstract' because the child wasn't praying to any concrete idol or picture. It was praying in the dark to an invisible entity.  That is why I used the word 'abstract'.
Would you talk about an 'abstract friend' as equivalent to imaginary friend? If child is taught to pray, not to an idol or picture, then it isn't making the jump to abstracted. Does the fact that it mentioned mommy and daddy quite so many times mean that some of those were 'abstract mommies and daddies'?

Sriram

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8253
    • Spirituality & Science
Re: A two year old child's prayer!
« Reply #29 on: January 27, 2016, 04:32:43 PM »
Would you talk about an 'abstract friend' as equivalent to imaginary friend? If child is taught to pray, not to an idol or picture, then it isn't making the jump to abstracted. Does the fact that it mentioned mommy and daddy quite so many times mean that some of those were 'abstract mommies and daddies'?


Alright! I am not going to start arguing over some words. I have explained why I used the word 'abstract'. 'Abstract' means something not concrete. 

It is not an 'imaginary God' because the child believes she is talking to a real entity. Maybe she was picturing the idol of Jesus that she has seen...or something.


King Oberon

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3193
  • Spread your wings and let the fairy in you fly!
Re: A two year old child's prayer!
« Reply #30 on: January 27, 2016, 04:36:33 PM »
If the child believed she was talking to an invisible unicorn would she also be talking to a real entity?

Your definition of abstract sums up religion perfectly  :)
I believe in everything until it's disproved. So I believe in fairies, the myths, dragons. It all exists, even if it's in your mind. Who's to say that dreams and nightmares aren't as real as the here and now?

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 64369
Re: A two year old child's prayer!
« Reply #31 on: January 27, 2016, 04:38:27 PM »

Alright! I am not going to start arguing over some words. I have explained why I used the word 'abstract'. 'Abstract' means something not concrete. 

It is not an 'imaginary God' because the child believes she is talking to a real entity. Maybe she was picturing the idol of Jesus that she has seen...or something.
using real and abstract as synonymous seems odd.

Sriram

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8253
    • Spirituality & Science
Re: A two year old child's prayer!
« Reply #32 on: January 27, 2016, 04:42:17 PM »
using real and abstract as synonymous seems odd.

No...its not. Dark Energy is abstract but it could be real. So also Parallel universes, Dark Matter, several dimensions and many other things.

Abstract just means 'not concrete' . It does not mean 'unreal'. 

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 64369
Re: A two year old child's prayer!
« Reply #33 on: January 27, 2016, 04:46:34 PM »
No...its not. Dark Energy is abstract but it could be real. So also Parallel universes, Dark Matter, several dimensions and many other things.

Abstract just means 'not concrete' . It does not mean 'unreal'.

And concrete means real, you seem a bit confused. Unknown is not synonymous with abstract, neither is unevidenced.

floo

  • Guest
Re: A two year old child's prayer!
« Reply #34 on: January 27, 2016, 04:58:04 PM »
Our son was about twelve by the time we felt we had to break the illusion and save him the embarrassment at school.

At that point he was under the impression that, as the world population had grown, St Nich' had expanded into franchising, and most parents around the world earned a few extra pounds each year wrapping presents for Santa Inc.

O.

Wow, that is old to still believe in that myth!

SusanDoris

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8265
Re: A two year old child's prayer!
« Reply #35 on: January 27, 2016, 05:40:37 PM »
As has often been said, all imaginary friends do not last beyond childhood. To me, it is very sad that the equally, and totally non-existent,* imaginary friend labelled God, or something equivalent,is still believed in by people.

* I have not forgotten the vanishingly, infinitesimally small ;possibility that a god might one day turn up.
The Most Honourable Sister of Titular Indecision.

OH MY WORLD!

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7050
  • Just between you me and a monkey sitting on a rock
Re: A two year old child's prayer!
« Reply #36 on: January 27, 2016, 10:23:24 PM »
Blind autistic boy sings, Open the eyes of my heart Lord, I want to see you.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-F_W_zl61bI

Sriram

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8253
    • Spirituality & Science
Re: A two year old child's prayer!
« Reply #37 on: January 28, 2016, 05:00:46 AM »
And concrete means real, you seem a bit confused. Unknown is not synonymous with abstract, neither is unevidenced.


LOL!  What am I confused about? 

Abstract means 'not concrete' or 'difficult to understand'.   It does NOT mean 'unreal'.

So...something can be abstract and still be real. Such as God, 7 dimensions, and the other things I have mentioned above.




torridon

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10210
Re: A two year old child's prayer!
« Reply #38 on: January 28, 2016, 06:46:58 AM »

LOL!  What am I confused about? 

Abstract means 'not concrete' or 'difficult to understand'.   It does NOT mean 'unreal'.

So...something can be abstract and still be real. Such as God, 7 dimensions, and the other things I have mentioned above.

That's incorrect. Abstract does not mean 'not concrete' or 'difficult to understand'.  Dark energy and dark matter are not abstract either, they are just poorly (or not yet) understood.  Abstract means more like 'conceptual'.

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 64369
Re: A two year old child's prayer!
« Reply #39 on: January 28, 2016, 07:45:15 AM »
Abstract I thought meant something that exists as an idea, rather than a thing, like love, beauty etc.

It can be real but has no physical existence.

Maths perhaps.

It doesn't have to be difficult to understand though.

Real effectively means actual existence, not imaginary, or conceptual so I struggle to see how abstract and real can be easily combined. As per the earlier comment an imaginary friend, no matter how complex, would not be real. In that sense imaginary and real are antonyms.

Tbh I think here is one of those cases, where the writer has tried to make something sound important by choosing a more loaded word than can be justified. We've all done it, and I don't even think it is deliberate. We try to convey things but language is a slippery tool. I even get what Sriram is trying to convey and I am struggling to come up with an exactly suitable word, I think 'immaterial' is probably best but even that has connotations which aren't justified in the circumstances.


In the end, I would suggest the problem is that too much is being made of it. If we put child talks to imaginary god, that reads as an attempt to make little if it. Abstract reads as an attempt to aggrandise it. It isn't as significant as either of those and they read as attempts at spin. There is the tendency, as mentioned earlier, to treat the actions of the babes and sucklings as way more meaningful than they can support.

Gonnagle

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11106
Re: A two year old child's prayer!
« Reply #40 on: January 28, 2016, 09:12:48 AM »
Dear Sriram,

I told you, no! I did tell you ;) you got them all frothing at the mouth :P

How do you quieten a two year old atheist, give him a page of the God Delusion to suck on ;D ;D

Anyway, I was interested in Susan's post, when she asked what the child was imagining, adults when praying don't imagine, or do they, I certainly don't, when I pray it is all about emotion, joy, sadness, anger, maybe I am doing it wrong :o

Gonnagle.
http://www.barnardos.org.uk/shop/shop-search.htm

http://www.twam.uk/donate-tools

Go on make a difference, have a rummage in your attic or garage.

Sriram

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8253
    • Spirituality & Science
Re: A two year old child's prayer!
« Reply #41 on: January 28, 2016, 09:23:30 AM »
That's incorrect. Abstract does not mean 'not concrete' or 'difficult to understand'.  Dark energy and dark matter are not abstract either, they are just poorly (or not yet) understood.  Abstract means more like 'conceptual'.

Just refer any online dictionary. Why is everyone coming up with their own definition?

Sriram

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8253
    • Spirituality & Science
Re: A two year old child's prayer!
« Reply #42 on: January 28, 2016, 09:25:39 AM »
Dear Sriram,

I told you, no! I did tell you ;) you got them all frothing at the mouth :P

How do you quieten a two year old atheist, give him a page of the God Delusion to suck on ;D ;D

Anyway, I was interested in Susan's post, when she asked what the child was imagining, adults when praying don't imagine, or do they, I certainly don't, when I pray it is all about emotion, joy, sadness, anger, maybe I am doing it wrong :o

Gonnagle.

You are right. There is more digression than discussion! LOL!

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 64369
Re: A two year old child's prayer!
« Reply #43 on: January 28, 2016, 09:40:16 AM »
You are right. There is more digression than discussion! LOL!

I think you are using the terms digression here to mean disagreeing with you in some way, and discussion to mean agreeing.

What 'frothing at the mouth' has there been?

The reason why I raised the question of abstract is that it's about what you want to make of this. That the child isn't talking to a physical thing has already been covered in that imaginary friends are not physical but we wouldn't regard them as real. You are also when challenged using different possible definitions of abstract as if the different uses are all necessarily in line with what you are trying to covey.


At base, the question here is what are we meant to take away from this, and I think you are attempting to make more of it than it can support - just as Floo does in the opposite fashion with her anecdote about her grand kid.


Sriram

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8253
    • Spirituality & Science
Re: A two year old child's prayer!
« Reply #44 on: January 28, 2016, 10:00:09 AM »
I think you are using the terms digression here to mean disagreeing with you in some way, and discussion to mean agreeing.

What 'frothing at the mouth' has there been?

The reason why I raised the question of abstract is that it's about what you want to make of this. That the child isn't talking to a physical thing has already been covered in that imaginary friends are not physical but we wouldn't regard them as real. You are also when challenged using different possible definitions of abstract as if the different uses are all necessarily in line with what you are trying to covey.


At base, the question here is what are we meant to take away from this, and I think you are attempting to make more of it than it can support - just as Floo does in the opposite fashion with her anecdote about her grand kid.

There is no problem with the definition of 'abstract'. Just check the dictionary.

You are just trying to convey that 'God' is imaginary and not abstract (because it could be REAL). That is your problem!


Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 64369
Re: A two year old child's prayer!
« Reply #45 on: January 28, 2016, 10:04:07 AM »
There is no problem with the definition of 'abstract'. Just check the dictionary.

You are just trying to convey that 'God' is imaginary and not abstract (because it could be REAL). That is your problem!

Am I? That's a bit strange when I specifically said in an earlier post that I thought that using imaginary would be wrong and another type of spin. Care to retract the misrepresentation?

Sriram

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8253
    • Spirituality & Science
Re: A two year old child's prayer!
« Reply #46 on: January 28, 2016, 10:43:11 AM »
Am I? That's a bit strange when I specifically said in an earlier post that I thought that using imaginary would be wrong and another type of spin. Care to retract the misrepresentation?

You always manage to digress and accuse people of misrepresenting, don't you? Never fails!

Anyway, I am at the airport and not on my PC. So cannot manage long discussions. Have a nice day.

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 64369
Re: A two year old child's prayer!
« Reply #47 on: January 28, 2016, 11:03:23 AM »
You always manage to digress and accuse people of misrepresenting, don't you? Never fails!

Anyway, I am at the airport and not on my PC. So cannot manage long discussions. Have a nice day.

Me Reply 46

'In the end, I would suggest the problem is that too much is being made of it. If we put child talks to imaginary god, that reads as an attempt to make little if it. Abstract reads as an attempt to aggrandise it. It isn't as significant as either of those and they read as attempts at spin. There is the tendency, as mentioned earlier, to treat the actions of the babes and sucklings as way more meaningful than they can support.'

You

Reply 52
There is no problem with the definition of 'abstract'. Just check the dictionary.

You are just trying to convey that 'God' is imaginary and not abstract (because it could be REAL). That is your problem!



So care to retract? Or do you just want to 'digress' with incorrect personal attacks rather than try to actually discuss?