Author Topic: More US election stuff  (Read 72280 times)

Shaker

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Re: More US election stuff
« Reply #25 on: February 04, 2016, 05:25:35 PM »
Anti-equal marriage, worker-exploiting, climate change-denying gun nut. Right up your street.
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Hope

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Re: More US election stuff
« Reply #26 on: February 04, 2016, 05:27:12 PM »
Which is almost certainly why many on this MB are terrified that he might end up as president.

Let's call him out on some of his uber-extremist right wing policies and views:

No funding for family planning services
Against equal marriage
Wants flat tax regime rather than a progressive system, so that a billionaire pays no more tax on his billionth $ than someone earning $10,000 does on their first
Climate change denier
Want to scrap even the hugely timid Obamacare provisions for universal healthcare
Wants to massively curtail or even ban abortion (potentially via constitutional amendment)
Totally biased in favour of Israel in the middle east.
Wants to encourage fossil fuel exploitation and reduce investment in renewable and sustainable energy
Active opponent of any change to restrict gun use
Anti-union
Anti minimum wage

The guy is a nightmare.
Probably only one of that list would compare favourably with my opinion, and that doesn't even touch on 'equal marriage'.  I too am 'anti-minimum wage'.  Would much prefer a realistic living wage.
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Shaker

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Re: More US election stuff
« Reply #27 on: February 04, 2016, 05:28:34 PM »
There's something wrong with your keyboard; it's inserting quotation marks in random places.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Hope

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Re: More US election stuff
« Reply #28 on: February 04, 2016, 05:32:54 PM »
As I wrote, nothing that would stop me from voting for him.

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2014/02/20/cruz-to-cnn-global-warming-not-supported-by-data/
The problem is that so-called 'global warming' is not a scientific concept, being a media-construction to pander to climate-change deniers.  That said, there is plenty of evidence that indiates that warming has occurred over the years.  Reduction of Arctic ice; retreat of Himalayan and other glaciers; etc.
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Hope

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Re: More US election stuff
« Reply #29 on: February 04, 2016, 05:35:19 PM »
There's something wrong with your keyboard; it's inserting quotation marks in random places.
That's right, Shaker; one has to point out that the term 'equal marriage' is a misnomer.  It is neither 'equal', nor 'marriage'.

As for the reference to 'anti-minimum wage' I used them to point out that it too is somewhat of a misnomer.
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Shaker

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Re: More US election stuff
« Reply #30 on: February 04, 2016, 05:38:25 PM »
That's right, Shaker; one has to point out that the term 'equal marriage' is a misnomer.  It is neither 'equal', nor 'marriage'.
It's equal as in gay couples are equal to straight couples in marriage terms, and it's marriage because the law says it is.

Are you going to explain why you think otherwise (i.e. in denial of established fact), or can we expect you just to run away again?
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Shaker

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Re: More US election stuff
« Reply #31 on: February 04, 2016, 05:45:34 PM »
Ah. The tactical running away, I see.

Figures.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Gordon

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Re: More US election stuff
« Reply #32 on: February 04, 2016, 05:53:17 PM »
That's right, Shaker; one has to point out that the term 'equal marriage' is a misnomer.  It is neither 'equal', nor 'marriage'.

Nope - marriage is a civil institution so it is whatever the law says is despite the shameful homophobia of some Christians, which wasn't sufficient to prevent social progress here in the UK.

Do keep at it though, since it serves to remind reasonable people why they need to be on guard against those aspects of organised religion that would prefer to discriminate for God.

Shaker

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Re: More US election stuff
« Reply #33 on: February 04, 2016, 05:55:17 PM »
Hope has done a Brave Sir Robin again, Gordon, so I don't think he'll be back to explain his reality-denying beliefs.

Or just one section of them, anyway ;)
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: More US election stuff
« Reply #34 on: February 04, 2016, 06:50:14 PM »
That's right, Shaker; one has to point out that the term 'equal marriage' is a misnomer.  It is neither 'equal', nor 'marriage'.
Yes it is - on both counts - see Shaker for explanation.

Hope

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Re: More US election stuff
« Reply #35 on: February 04, 2016, 08:53:56 PM »
Yes it is - on both counts - see Shaker for explanation.
Sorry, it is not either.  Equal marriage requires a mix of gender - not two of the same.
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Hope

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Re: More US election stuff
« Reply #36 on: February 04, 2016, 08:56:11 PM »
Ah. The tactical running away, I see.

Figures.
Sorry, I hadn't realised that I'm not allowed to 1) go and cook my family's supper, 2) work on an assignnment that is already technically 3 months late, but I have been given a dispensation due to my stroke last October.
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Gordon

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Re: More US election stuff
« Reply #37 on: February 04, 2016, 08:59:21 PM »
Sorry, it is not either.  Equal marriage requires a mix of gender - not two of the same.

Not any more, thank goodness.

Rhiannon

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Re: More US election stuff
« Reply #38 on: February 04, 2016, 09:02:08 PM »
Sorry, it is not either.  Equal marriage requires a mix of gender - not two of the same.

Only in the sad little definition given to it by you and those who believe like you. If anything devalues marriage that does.

Shaker

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Re: More US election stuff
« Reply #39 on: February 04, 2016, 09:18:42 PM »
Sorry, it is not either.  Equal marriage requires a mix of gender
Nope, it doesn't.
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- not two of the same.
The law says otherwise, and the law defines what marriage is (as in who can marry who, and can't). You obviously missed it, which is a surprise because it was in all the papers and on the telly and everything at the time.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2016, 10:08:02 PM by Shaker »
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Shaker

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Re: More US election stuff
« Reply #40 on: February 04, 2016, 09:20:25 PM »
Sorry, I hadn't realised that I'm not allowed to 1) go and cook my family's supper, 2) work on an assignnment that is already technically 3 months late, but I have been given a dispensation due to my stroke last October.
Easy mistake to make - I was just going by every other time you've run away from everything else you don't want to answer.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2016, 09:22:26 PM by Shaker »
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Owlswing

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Re: More US election stuff
« Reply #41 on: February 04, 2016, 09:47:03 PM »
Sorry, it is not either.  Equal marriage requires a mix of gender - not two of the same.

In YOUR opinion! An outdated opinion!

You are a homophobe and nothing that you say can change that FACT!
The Holy Bible, probably the most diabolical work of fiction ever to be visited upon mankind.

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Shaker

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Re: More US election stuff
« Reply #42 on: February 04, 2016, 10:19:32 PM »
In YOUR opinion! An outdated opinion!
By almost two years, in fact.
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: More US election stuff
« Reply #43 on: February 05, 2016, 07:52:08 AM »
Sorry, it is not either.  Equal marriage requires a mix of gender - not two of the same.
No it doesn't - equal marriage means that couples are able to get married and therefore treated equally in law regardless of their gender and sexuality.

The term is used in preference to the term 'gay marriage' which erroneously implies that there are two kinds of marriage, 'gay marriage' and 'heterosexual marriage', when there is only one kind of marriage - which is now available equally to couples regardless of the gender makeup of that couple and their sexuality.

Gordon

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Re: More US election stuff
« Reply #44 on: February 05, 2016, 08:00:00 AM »
I think Hope hasn't yet realised that he is living in a post-Christian society and that were it not for the nonsense of the CofE being 'established', hence the shameful ring-fencing of them when SSM was legalised, that what Christianity thinks on any issue isn't binding on society at large or, seemingly, to those reasonable Christians who aren't hidebound to the fallacies of authority and tradition.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: More US election stuff
« Reply #45 on: February 05, 2016, 08:31:23 AM »
I think Hope hasn't yet realised that he is living in a post-Christian society and that were it not for the nonsense of the CofE being 'established', hence the shameful ring-fencing of them when SSM was legalised, that what Christianity thinks on any issue isn't binding on society at large or, seemingly, to those reasonable Christians who aren't hidebound to the fallacies of authority and tradition.
I think what he has also failed to realise is that for centuries in the UK marriage has been defined entirely by the civil law of the land, and remains so today. Religious 'marriages' are only valid when and if they align with civil law and that the reason why many people end up having two ceremonies - a civil marriage (valid and legally binding) and a separate religious ceremony. Get rid of the latter and the couple are still married, get rid of the former and they aren't.

Hope

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Re: More US election stuff
« Reply #46 on: February 05, 2016, 08:45:11 AM »
I think what he has also failed to realise is that for centuries in the UK marriage has been defined entirely by the civil law of the land, and remains so today. Religious 'marriages' are only valid when and if they align with civil law and that the reason why many people end up having two ceremonies - a civil marriage (valid and legally binding) and a separate religious ceremony. Get rid of the latter and the couple are still married, get rid of the former and they aren't.
I have no interest in whether or not Britain is a 'post-Christian' society (whatever that might mean), nor am I worried about what the UK civil law has said.  It is only in the last 25 years that the idea of marriage being anything other than between different sexes has become law anywhere in the world.  We all know that legislation can be wrong or poorly created, and can fall over a period of time.  I believe that this is a flawed piece of legislation, whether it exists in the UK, the USA or anywhere else in the world. 

As for whether or not one is married, traditionally marriage was in the eyes of God - not civil law - as there were no civil benefits attached to being married until 100/150 years ago.  That is why, for instance, divorces had to be granted by church leaders such as the Pope, as opposed to civil authorities.  Like so much else that we now take for granted as being State provision, marriage has only relatively recently taken on a state-'provision' mantle.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2016, 08:53:34 AM by Hope »
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Gordon

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Re: More US election stuff
« Reply #47 on: February 05, 2016, 09:23:22 AM »
And I also think that he has no interest in whether or not Britain is a 'post-Christian' society (whatever that might mean)

It means that the influence of organised Christianity on society at large is now so marginal as to be largely irrelevant to the majority, as must be obvious to you from the fact that same-sex marriage was legalised despite religious objections, and that for many of us Christianity is now something we can simply ignore.

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.. nor is he that worried about what the UK civil law has said.

Even so you are still bound by them whether you agree or disagree.

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It is only in the last 25 years that the idea of marriage being anything other than between different sexes has become law anywhere in the world.

It is called social progress, and we should be glad of it when any forms of discrimination are removed.

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We all know that legislation can be wrong or poorly created, abd can fall over a period of time.

True, but legislation can also be beneficial and socially progressive.

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I suspect he believes that this is a flawed piece of legislation, whether it exists in the UK, the USA or anywhere else in the world.

You are entitled to your opinion of course, but where it is based on religious dogma that conflicts with progressive social attitudes then, and since the UK isn't a theocracy, your opinions carry no additional weight by dint of them being 'religious'.

I see that, sadly, an MP has died at a comparatively young age, and so a by-election is pending. It would be interesting to see how a candidate campaigning on a specifically Anglican religious manifesto would fare and until such times as such as yourself 'put up' as regards public policy by seeking and gaining a democratic mandate then the rest of us can, if we wish, simply ignore Christianity and consider its stance to be both regressive and irrelevant.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2016, 10:01:56 AM by Gordon »

Hope

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Re: More US election stuff
« Reply #48 on: February 05, 2016, 10:01:47 AM »
It means that the influence of organised Christianity on society at at large is now so marginal as to be largely irrelevant to the majority, as must be obvious to you from the fact that same-sex marriage was legalised despite religious objections, and that for many of us Christianity is now something we can simply ignore.
History would seem to suggest that this has occurred on a number of occasions before, so perhaps the cycle of religiosity and irreligiosity will continue its pattern.

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Even so you are still bound by them whether you agree or disagree.
It's interesting that people are required to be bound by such things when it suits certain groups but not when it doesn't suit a certain group.

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It is called social progress, and we should be glad of it when any forms of discrimination are removed.
It can also be called social engineering when forms of discrimination that have been in place for good reasons are artificailly removed.  Tax breaks for big companies come to mind  ;)

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True, but legislation can also be beneficial and socially progressive.
'Can' be the operative word here, Gordon: not necessarily 'are'.

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You are entitled to your opinion of course, but where it is based on religious dogma that conflicts with progressive social attitudes then, and since the UK isn't a theocracy, your opinions carry no additional weight by dint of them being 'religious'.
But it is also interesting to notice that, when 'religious dogma' is used to support certain opinions, such as the validity of homosexual relationships, no complaints are raised.  As for 'theocracy' I'm not sure that that is relevant as democracy allows all voices to be heard.

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I see that, sadly, an MP has died at a comparatively young age, and so a by-election is pending. It would be interesting to see how a candidate campaigning on a specifically Anglican religious manifesto would fare and until such times as such as yourself 'put up' as regards public policy by seeking and gaining a democratic mandate then the rest of us can, if we wish, simply ignore Christianity and consider its stance to be both regressive and irrelevant.
Good to see the non-sequitur in this paragraph.
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Gordon

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Re: More US election stuff
« Reply #49 on: February 05, 2016, 10:41:12 AM »
History would seem to suggest that this has occurred on a number of occasions before, so perhaps the cycle of religiosity and irreligiosity will continue its pattern.

I'd expect that context is relevant here, and in the 21st century UK, as opposed to times and places when people were more credulous regarding religious matters, it does seem that Christianity is on a long slow decline: it won't disappear anytime soon, but its relevance as an influence on social policy is already weakened to the extent that it is at best marginal and at worst irrelevant.

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It's interesting that people are required to be bound by such things when it suits certain groups but not when it doesn't suit a certain group.

Depends what you mean by 'special group', and that such groups will have an agenda is no surprise - however the relevance of these groups to society at large is another matter within a democracy.
 
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It can also be called social engineering when forms of discrimination that have been in place for good reasons are artificailly removed.  Tax breaks for big companies come to mind  ;)

The comparison you make between tax regimes and not discriminating on the basis of sexuality are strange bed-fellows: so strange as to be a desperate argument.

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But it is also interesting to notice that, when 'religious dogma' is used to support certain opinions, such as the validity of homosexual relationships, no complaints are raised.

So, what is your problem with SSM if religious dogma really is supportive? I'm guessing that your 'support' is conditional else you'd already be fully supportive of SSM, and you clearly aren't: be interested to see how you clarify this point.

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As for 'theocracy' I'm not sure that that is relevant as democracy allows all voices to be heard.

Indeed it does, but translating that voice into having a direct influence on the framing of social policy legislation isn't simply a matter of voicing opinions.

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Good to see the non-sequitur in this paragraph.

Which is why I suggested you guys put an Anglican manifesto to the test in a democratic election - can't see why that is a non-sequitur, although I can see why you'd avoid doing so.