Author Topic: More US election stuff  (Read 72283 times)

Shaker

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Re: More US election stuff
« Reply #50 on: February 05, 2016, 10:45:55 AM »
I have no interest in whether or not Britain is a 'post-Christian' society (whatever that might mean)
Gordon explained it extremely well in #47.

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nor am I worried about what the UK civil law has said.
Unless you're a master criminal I'm pretty sure you're "worried" about what the law says in every other regard. A law regarding marriage between two people of the same sex is presumably one unlikely to be of use or interest to you in any case, so as was often said during the equal marriage "debate", there's no need to concern yourself with something that doesn't apply to you and never will.

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We all know that legislation can be wrong or poorly created, and can fall over a period of time.

Not this one. As I've said before, the arc of history runs one way only on things such as this. Across the twentieth century the trend in all civilised places has been toward greater personal freedom and the emphasis on the rights of the individual. Votes for women, emancipation of women generally, decriminalisation of homosexuality, equal marriage, legal sanctions against discrimination on all manner of grounds (race/ethnicity, age, sex, physical ability, etc.), reproductive freedom ... it's a long list. Not only are these measures not repealed, they're consistently extended (albeit far too slowly) because all rational people of goodwill recognise that they're good for individuals and good for society as a whole. Removing backward and ignorant forms of discrimination, discrimination based on noxious, ugly, divisive and illiberal attitudes, makes individual people happier and society better for it.

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I believe that this is a flawed piece of legislation, whether it exists in the UK, the USA or anywhere else in the world.
Nothing flawed about it - with regard to England and Wales it went through the proper channels exactly the same as any, in fact every other piece of legislation. Equal marriage in Ireland couldn't become law without majority approval for a change in the Irish constitution; a vote was held and a majority wanted to see such a change, so equal marriage become law. Simples. It's a progressive move that benefits a particular sector of society - or societies, rather, since more and more countries are legislating for equal marriage. Finland's bill has been passed and comes into force in just over a year's time, on March 1st 2017. I gather that Australia, Chile and Switzerland seem likely to be next on the list.

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As for whether or not one is married, traditionally marriage was in the eyes of God - not civil law - as there were no civil benefits attached to being married until 100/150 years ago.
Yup. The Marriage Act 1836, to be precise. (Opposed by the C of E, needless to say). Glad to see you're finally catching up with the nineteenth century.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2016, 11:43:24 AM by Shaker »
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Gordon

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Re: More US election stuff
« Reply #51 on: February 05, 2016, 11:05:47 AM »

As for whether or not one is married, traditionally marriage was in the eyes of God - not civil law - as there were no civil benefits attached to being married until 100/150 years ago.  That is why, for instance, divorces had to be granted by church leaders such as the Pope, as opposed to civil authorities.
We've moved on though, so that in the UK today organisations based on the religious superstitions of the middle-east in antiquity no longer have the substantial influence they once had on wider society that would, today, be disproportionate to their social relevance - good thing too!.

You guys have no current mandate to influence social policy for society in general, although you are perfectly free to acquire a mandate via the ballot-box: so why don't you?

Shaker

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Re: More US election stuff
« Reply #52 on: February 05, 2016, 11:23:07 AM »
We've moved on though
And therein lies the problem for Hoppity.
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: More US election stuff
« Reply #53 on: February 05, 2016, 11:46:08 AM »
As for whether or not one is married, traditionally marriage was in the eyes of God - not civil law - as there were no civil benefits attached to being married until 100/150 years ago.
Oh the profound lack of understanding of history.

It of course depends on which 'tradition' you look at and how far back you go. 'Traditionally' the earliest cultures considered marriage as a society (i.e. legal) contract between couples. It wasn't primarily religious at all, but civil and legal. Indeed the early Christian church took no interest in marriage leaving it to the predominant greco-roman legal tradition. I think it wasn't until about 1200 that formal church rules were put in place for marriage. And even those had a basis in law - as ecclesiastic law and civil law were largely interdependent at that time.

And of course we have for a couple of hundred years here in the UK allowed marriage in an entirely civil context, without any religious element.

So the reality is that sometime marriage has had religious elements, sometimes not, but it is always civil and legal and without those civil and legal elements there isn't a marriage - without religious elements there can still be a marriage.

Owlswing

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Re: More US election stuff
« Reply #54 on: February 05, 2016, 12:04:43 PM »

Hope, or should that read Hopeless

Go back into history, you are very keen on history when it suits your archaic arguments for Christian religious domination, take a look at Greek and Roman pre-Christian artwork.

You will find that, like quite a few other things, homosexual and lesbian activity predate your uptight, sexually repressed church by many many years.

If you want to drag us back into history keep it up and with any luck at all we will get far enough back to leave Christianity as something to come in the future and Herod will get your Jesus Christ with all the rest of the newborns and save us years of murder by your 'loving' god's adherents.
The Holy Bible, probably the most diabolical work of fiction ever to be visited upon mankind.

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Shaker

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Re: More US election stuff
« Reply #55 on: February 05, 2016, 12:14:52 PM »
And of course we have for a couple of hundred years here in the UK allowed marriage in an entirely civil context, without any religious element.
In 2010 well over two thirds - 68% to be precise - of all marriages in this country were civil marriages which by law must be entirely secular with no religious input whatever. No hymns, no prayers, no references to a deity, nothing.

That was a rise of 4% over the preceding decade, so I wouldn't be a bit surprised if that proportion is even higher by now.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2016, 12:20:47 PM by Shaker »
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: More US election stuff
« Reply #56 on: February 05, 2016, 12:30:21 PM »
In 2010 well over two thirds - 68% to be precise - of all marriages in this country were civil marriages which by law must be entirely secular with no religious input whatever. No hymns, no prayers, no references to a deity, nothing.

That was a rise of 4% over the preceding decade, so I wouldn't be a bit surprised if that proportion is even higher by now.
Hymns, prayers, references to a deity are entirely optional elements that some people chose to add to their wedding ceremony, but are entirely unnecessary for a marriage to be valid. That requires the ceremony to be conducted according to the law of the land, and include those key elements required in law. If those key elements are missing and if the ceremony does not meet the legal requirements then there is no marriage - prayers, hymns, references to a deity etc won't change that fact.

L.A.

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Re: More US election stuff
« Reply #57 on: February 05, 2016, 07:25:27 PM »
The scary thing is that I'm not sure I agree.

Trump comes across as completely objectionable, but I suspect a lot of this is 'front'. I imagine that behind all that bravado he is relatively pragmatic in his views - I don't really think he is an ideologue.

That isn't the same for Cruz or Carson, who are religious right extremist ideologues of the n-th degree. Have a look at this web-site from an ultra conservative source, so if they like the candidate's position we should be running screaming away from them. Compare their almost unanimously positive view on Cruz with their more lukewarm support for the extreme rightwing-ness of Trump.

https://www.conservativereview.com/2016-presidential-candidates

Although the notion of a Trump presidency scares me rigid, the notion of a Cruz one scares me even more.

The scary part is that a large part of the American electorate identify with Trumps stated views (though you might well be right about Cruz and Carson)
Brexit Bar:

Full of nuts but with lots of flakey bits and a bitter aftertaste

Outrider

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Re: More US election stuff
« Reply #58 on: February 06, 2016, 10:03:48 AM »
Sorry, it is not either.  Equal marriage requires a mix of gender - not two of the same.

I've had a look at the statute book - http://tinyurl.com/aeam22f - it turns out that used to be the case, but it no longer is. The relative gender of the participants is no longer relevant.

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Outrider

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Re: More US election stuff
« Reply #59 on: February 06, 2016, 10:11:19 AM »
It is only in the last 25 years that the idea of marriage being anything other than between different sexes has become law anywhere in the world.

But it's only in the last 150 years or so that it hasn't been a contract between a man and a woman...'s father.

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We all know that legislation can be wrong or poorly created, and can fall over a period of time.  I believe that this is a flawed piece of legislation, whether it exists in the UK, the USA or anywhere else in the world.

We do know that, but we don't presume that laws we don't like are automatically flawed, we have to produce a rational argument to support our stance. 

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As for whether or not one is married, traditionally marriage was in the eyes of God - not civil law - as there were no civil benefits attached to being married until 100/150 years ago.

When, as has been established, marriage was used by the church to establish it's power-base as the arbiter of legal unions between powerful people, whereas the masses by and large didn't need an official ceremony.

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That is why, for instance, divorces had to be granted by church leaders such as the Pope, as opposed to civil authorities.

Yeah, I think you forgot to account for the establishment of the Church of England in the 1530s...

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Like so much else that we now take for granted as being State provision, marriage has only relatively recently taken on a state-'provision' mantle.

Like so many other areas where society has realised the church is an irrelevance, what people do with their genitals and their taxes, and how the two interact, has nothing to do with their unsubstantiated 'spirit' claims.

O.
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Shaker

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Re: More US election stuff
« Reply #60 on: February 06, 2016, 11:50:30 AM »
Good heavens big O - surely you're not suggesting that what used to be the case isn't any longer because things change?  :o
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Rhiannon

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Re: More US election stuff
« Reply #61 on: February 06, 2016, 12:08:21 PM »
I still don't understand why people wanting to marry and being allowed to marry devalues marriage. Surely the fact that people want to get married reaffirms that it still has a place in society? To deny it to people and make it exclusive is what devalues it.

Shaker

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Re: More US election stuff
« Reply #62 on: February 06, 2016, 12:17:33 PM »
I can't find the image now but there was a pointedly sarcastic poster doing the rounds a while back saying that of course equal marriage devalues real marriages, proper marriages like Kim Kardashian's 72-day splicing and the 55-hour connubial bliss of Britney Spears.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2016, 12:20:07 PM by Shaker »
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: More US election stuff
« Reply #63 on: February 06, 2016, 02:36:24 PM »
We've moved on though, so that in the UK today organisations based on the religious superstitions of the middle-east in antiquity no longer have the substantial influence they once had on wider society that would, today, be disproportionate to their social relevance - good thing too!.

You guys have no current mandate to influence social policy for society in general, although you are perfectly free to acquire a mandate via the ballot-box: so why don't you?
I think you are mistaking swivel eyed antitheism for society in general here. I suspect attempt on your part both to promote your own beliefs as mainstream and to excise religious people from the notion of society.

Owlswing

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Re: More US election stuff
« Reply #64 on: February 06, 2016, 02:57:36 PM »

I think you are mistaking swivel eyed antitheism for society in general here. I suspect attempt on your part both to promote your own beliefs as mainstream and to excise religious people from the notion of society.


In that case I would suspect that your intelligence and sanity are seriously suspect!
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: More US election stuff
« Reply #65 on: February 06, 2016, 03:18:11 PM »
I think you are mistaking swivel eyed antitheism for society in general here. I suspect attempt on your part both to promote your own beliefs as mainstream and to excise religious people from the notion of society.
If we are talking about equality for gay people, including the ability for those people to marry, then those views are undoubtedly mainstream in the UK, without doubt the majority position.

And don't forget that there is nothing that requires religious people to be gay, nor to think that homosexuality is right. Nor is there any requirement for religious organisations to have to conduct marriages for gay couples. Their ability to chose whether or not to do so is enshrined in law.

So we have a very good balance of supporting the extension of basic human rights, and therefore aligning the law with the majority view, while also clearly protecting the rights of those who take a minority view that gay people shouldn't be allowed to marry.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: More US election stuff
« Reply #66 on: February 06, 2016, 03:27:52 PM »
In that case I would suspect that your intelligence and sanity are seriously suspect!
Have you also given up shaving and washing regularly?

Owlswing

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Re: More US election stuff
« Reply #67 on: February 06, 2016, 03:30:30 PM »
Have you also given up shaving and washing regularly?

Shaving ages ago as I need a full beard to cosplay Archchancellor Ridcully and the MCM in May.

Washing, at least twice a day and a shower at least once a day! This means that the smell you seem to be detecting is probably your own. Farts ot BO I have no idea!
The Holy Bible, probably the most diabolical work of fiction ever to be visited upon mankind.

An it harm none, do what you will; an it harm some, do what you must!

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: More US election stuff
« Reply #68 on: February 06, 2016, 04:13:05 PM »
Shaving ages ago as I need a full beard to cosplay Archchancellor Ridcully and the MCM in May.

Washing, at least twice a day and a shower at least once a day! This means that the smell you seem to be detecting is probably your own. Farts ot BO I have no idea!
No.......I'm definitely getting a hint of goat  ;)

Owlswing

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Re: More US election stuff
« Reply #69 on: February 06, 2016, 04:33:48 PM »

No.......I'm definitely getting a hint of goat  ;)


Not surprising seeing as how you've been acting the goat on this forum for long enough 8)
The Holy Bible, probably the most diabolical work of fiction ever to be visited upon mankind.

An it harm none, do what you will; an it harm some, do what you must!

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: More US election stuff
« Reply #70 on: February 06, 2016, 04:49:57 PM »
Not surprising seeing as how you've been acting the goat on this forum for long enough 8)
Goat? Me? Never use them pal..... ;)

Owlswing

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Re: More US election stuff
« Reply #71 on: February 06, 2016, 05:24:48 PM »

Goat? Me? Never use them pal..... ;)


I did say acting . . . !
The Holy Bible, probably the most diabolical work of fiction ever to be visited upon mankind.

An it harm none, do what you will; an it harm some, do what you must!

jeremyp

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Re: More US election stuff
« Reply #72 on: February 07, 2016, 02:20:53 PM »
For those talking about Rubio being a potential candidate, it looks like he has blown it.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-us-2016-35515562

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Shaker

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Re: More US election stuff
« Reply #73 on: February 07, 2016, 06:51:54 PM »
For those talking about Rubio being a potential candidate, it looks like he has blown it.
You're not kidding:

https://goo.gl/dj6EEJ
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Nearly Sane

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Re: More US election stuff
« Reply #74 on: February 08, 2016, 08:58:24 AM »
Nope, will still be Rubio. This sort of stuff is minor.