Author Topic: More US election stuff  (Read 72268 times)

Nearly Sane

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Re: More US election stuff
« Reply #675 on: November 19, 2016, 08:42:06 PM »

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: More US election stuff
« Reply #676 on: November 20, 2016, 07:59:52 AM »
Good analysis

http://reaction.life/trump-media-genius-winding-liberal-left/

I agree with this - especially this part:

"Meanwhile, the liberal left needs surely to realise that the obsession with snowflake identity politics is an electoral and cultural dead end."

Trump's election did seem like a significant portion of the population celebrating being able to openly say what had previously been policed by not-so-liberal liberals, and a rejection of this particular aspect of 'liberal' culture, while reclaiming a culture that a significant proportion of Americans were comfortable to be a part of. The 'liberals' need a new game plan.
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floo

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Re: More US election stuff
« Reply #677 on: November 20, 2016, 08:31:01 AM »
Far better to be a liberal than a right wing bigot!

jeremyp

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Re: More US election stuff
« Reply #678 on: November 20, 2016, 01:43:47 PM »

I too heard that from a couple of sources. 
Apparently he lost a lot of the money he got from his father.

The most reliable way to make a small fortune is to start with a large one.

Anyway, he just settled a lawsuit about Trump University to avoid embarrassment. There are probably a lot of people with grievances against Trump thinking "I could get a piece of that now".
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Jack Knave

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Re: More US election stuff
« Reply #679 on: November 20, 2016, 08:42:06 PM »
Far better to be a liberal than a right wing bigot!
That's exactly what these so called 'liberal' are, bigots.

Jack Knave

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Re: More US election stuff
« Reply #680 on: November 20, 2016, 08:57:12 PM »
I agree with this - especially this part:

"Meanwhile, the liberal left needs surely to realise that the obsession with snowflake identity politics is an electoral and cultural dead end."

Trump's election did seem like a significant portion of the population celebrating being able to openly say what had previously been policed by not-so-liberal liberals, and a rejection of this particular aspect of 'liberal' culture, while reclaiming a culture that a significant proportion of Americans were comfortable to be a part of. The 'liberals' need a new game plan.
I agree with you. But lets put it into context here. What the 'liberals' have done is to try to control the populous by making certain ideas a taboo and unmentionable i.e. closing down debate on certain topics and ideas. This is exactly what the Nazis and the Soviet Union, and others, tried to do when applying their restrictive ideology so that they got the minimum of opposition and challenge to what they wanted to do - even using threats, false charges and even assassinations. This is exactly what the EU does and this is why EU member states have the same approach and policy in controlling the people. So what I say to the 'liberals' is not change and rethink your ideas and attitudes and approach but fuck off!!!

Hope

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Re: More US election stuff
« Reply #681 on: November 20, 2016, 09:44:19 PM »
This is exactly what the EU does and this is why EU member states have the same approach and policy in controlling the people.
But so are the 'non-liberals' such as UKIP, the Tories, Labour, the SNP, the Lib-Dems., etc.  If anything, its a characteristic of representative democracy.
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wigginhall

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Re: More US election stuff
« Reply #682 on: November 21, 2016, 03:57:14 PM »
Some interesting articles at the w/e, arguing that the Trump win, and the possibility of a Le Pen win, are being greeted by ISIS rapturously.   You can see their argument - if Trump really does crack down hard on Muslims, the IS position is confirmed, that the West hate Muslims, and want to persecute them.   

Still, it's basically guesswork.   On the ground, it affects both Syria and Iraq, where the Sunni tribes have sometimes supported AQ and IS.  If either Assad or Trump go on a revenge mission against the tribes, expect the IS recruiting sergeants to be working day and night.  Think N. Ireland and internment.

On the other hand, IS are losing militarily.  Funny world, eh?

http://www.salon.com/2016/11/10/isis-is-gloating-about-donald-trumps-presidential-win/
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Jack Knave

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Re: More US election stuff
« Reply #683 on: November 21, 2016, 06:09:33 PM »
But so are the 'non-liberals' such as UKIP, the Tories, Labour, the SNP, the Lib-Dems., etc.  If anything, its a characteristic of representative democracy.
UKIP hasn't closed down debate they have opened it up. The Tories, Labour and LibDems, especially the leaders and top people in them are all EU sycophants and so play this EU game, and the SNP being lefties try and play this type of game.

Jack Knave

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Re: More US election stuff
« Reply #684 on: November 21, 2016, 06:13:35 PM »
Some interesting articles at the w/e, arguing that the Trump win, and the possibility of a Le Pen win, are being greeted by ISIS rapturously.   You can see their argument - if Trump really does crack down hard on Muslims, the IS position is confirmed, that the West hate Muslims, and want to persecute them.   

Still, it's basically guesswork.   On the ground, it affects both Syria and Iraq, where the Sunni tribes have sometimes supported AQ and IS.  If either Assad or Trump go on a revenge mission against the tribes, expect the IS recruiting sergeants to be working day and night.  Think N. Ireland and internment.

On the other hand, IS are losing militarily.  Funny world, eh?

http://www.salon.com/2016/11/10/isis-is-gloating-about-donald-trumps-presidential-win/
Funny indeed! I can't stop laughing.  :(

Hope

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Re: More US election stuff
« Reply #685 on: November 21, 2016, 06:46:10 PM »
UKIP hasn't closed down debate they have opened it up. The Tories, Labour and LibDems, especially the leaders and top people in them are all EU sycophants and so play this EU game, and the SNP being lefties try and play this type of game.
Jack, I seem to remember that the media regularly carried articles that debated the pros and cons of the EU and of other international groupings.  Don't recall many, if any, since the immediate fall out from the Brexit vote.  Are you saying that the main parties have instructed the media not to discuss the matter?  As for UKIP opening debate up, where was the opportunity within UKIP to discuss whether remaining or leaving was the best thing to do?
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wigginhall

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Re: More US election stuff
« Reply #686 on: November 21, 2016, 06:46:23 PM »
They were the footprints of a gigantic hound!

Jack Knave

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Re: More US election stuff
« Reply #687 on: November 21, 2016, 07:23:09 PM »
Jack, I seem to remember that the media regularly carried articles that debated the pros and cons of the EU and of other international groupings.  Don't recall many, if any, since the immediate fall out from the Brexit vote.  Are you saying that the main parties have instructed the media not to discuss the matter?  As for UKIP opening debate up, where was the opportunity within UKIP to discuss whether remaining or leaving was the best thing to do?
You didn't mention the media in your last post and so I made no comment on it but you respond as if I did? The media do what the media do, they aren't running for some form of government.

You don't seem to understand the process here. UKIP etc. are not meant to argue with themselves just to present a position for others to provide a counter argument. UKIP never tried to close down a certain argument or idea as some of the others have tried to do.

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: More US election stuff
« Reply #688 on: November 23, 2016, 02:08:35 PM »
Far better to be a liberal than a right wing bigot!
My point was that the feel good factor of championing individuality and identity is an easy win for liberals - it makes them feel like they are doing something great and meaningful. But maybe in the process there was some complacency about addressing the tougher issues around funding and motivating voters to re-train to keep up with the effects of global competition.

Many of those voters seem to have felt alienated by the lack of focus on their needs and presumably they felt rejected that attention was diverted away from their lack of access to employment that allows them to put food on the table and gives these people self-sufficiency and self-respect. I suppose they see that as liberals dismissing their identity, whereas Trump celebrated their identity, hence he got their votes even though he did it by appealing more to their emotions rather than facts, statistics or logic. Calling them right-wing bigots isn't going to get their votes.

It raises an interesting question - how do liberal politicians who can cope with the bumps that go with changing demographics and culture in a changing world appeal to people who want to live in a past where they were more assured of their place,  influence and privilege because they had less people to compete against, and who do not want to see their culture change? There is a similar resistance to change in other communities in other parts of the world.
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wigginhall

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Re: More US election stuff
« Reply #689 on: November 23, 2016, 02:22:02 PM »
I agree that calling people names doesn't help, but isn't it important to say that there are many right-wing currents in Europe and the US today, and we are half-way towards fascism?   It reminds me of the 30s, in fact, except that we don't have mass unemployment and hyper-inflation.   It's important to warn.
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The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: More US election stuff
« Reply #690 on: November 23, 2016, 02:38:53 PM »
Yes it is important to say - especially as people should not be stopped from expressing opinions.

Having said it, I am wondering how to persuade people that nationalism is going to have limited success and a lot of costs in a global economy. But I suppose different people have different measures of success. There were people who voted who define success as not losing cultural identity even if it costs them economically.
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wigginhall

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Re: More US election stuff
« Reply #691 on: November 23, 2016, 02:46:15 PM »
Yes it is important to say - especially as people should not be stopped from expressing opinions.

Having said it, I am wondering how to persuade people that nationalism is going to have limited success and a lot of costs in a global economy. But I suppose different people have different measures of success. There were people who voted who define success as not losing cultural identity even if it costs them economically.

Well, 'cultural identity' is a nice sounding phrase, which can mean practically anything.   Have you ever read this: '“If we were to divide mankind into three groups, the founders of culture, the bearers of culture, the destroyers of culture, only the Aryan could be considered as the representative of the first group.'   Mein Kampf.
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The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: More US election stuff
« Reply #692 on: November 23, 2016, 03:13:19 PM »
Well, 'cultural identity' is a nice sounding phrase, which can mean practically anything.
Agreed. How do you appeal to people who are told to respect other people's cultural identity but feel their own cultural identity is not being respected? It's a minefield and not sure who came up with this idea of respect for cultural identity. When I was growing up in Britain in the 70s it seemed less complicated - integrating was part of the process of moving to another country unless you moved there as conquerors / colonisers. 

Quote
Have you ever read this: '“If we were to divide mankind into three groups, the founders of culture, the bearers of culture, the destroyers of culture, only the Aryan could be considered as the representative of the first group.'   Mein Kampf.
Apparently racial theories appeal to some people's vanity - how do you combat vanity?
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Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

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wigginhall

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Re: More US election stuff
« Reply #693 on: November 23, 2016, 04:26:28 PM »
Well, I remember what Joe Hill said, don't mourn, organize.   
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Walter

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Re: More US election stuff
« Reply #694 on: November 23, 2016, 04:33:11 PM »
Well, 'cultural identity' is a nice sounding phrase, which can mean practically anything.   Have you ever read this: '“If we were to divide mankind into three groups, the founders of culture, the bearers of culture, the destroyers of culture, only the Aryan could be considered as the representative of the first group.'   Mein Kampf.
give it a rest , and that's being polite

wigginhall

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Re: More US election stuff
« Reply #695 on: November 23, 2016, 04:36:28 PM »
give it a rest , and that's being polite

Touches a nerve?
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Walter

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Re: More US election stuff
« Reply #696 on: November 23, 2016, 04:37:04 PM »
I agree with you. But lets put it into context here. What the 'liberals' have done is to try to control the populous by making certain ideas a taboo and unmentionable i.e. closing down debate on certain topics and ideas. This is exactly what the Nazis and the Soviet Union, and others, tried to do when applying their restrictive ideology so that they got the minimum of opposition and challenge to what they wanted to do - even using threats, false charges and even assassinations. This is exactly what the EU does and this is why EU member states have the same approach and policy in controlling the people. So what I say to the 'liberals' is not change and rethink your ideas and attitudes and approach but fuck off!!!
I'm with you Jack, like your passion.

Walter

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Re: More US election stuff
« Reply #697 on: November 23, 2016, 04:45:30 PM »

Harrowby Hall

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Re: More US election stuff
« Reply #698 on: November 24, 2016, 08:48:32 AM »
my teeth itch!

What strange teeth you have. Have you consulted a dentist?
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Sriram

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Re: More US election stuff
« Reply #699 on: November 24, 2016, 02:00:43 PM »

http://edition.cnn.com/2016/11/23/politics/election-hack-hillary-clinton-donald-trump/index.html

Just like the anti brexit lot. Never give up and accept a result....! ::)
« Last Edit: November 24, 2016, 02:03:34 PM by Sriram »