Author Topic: Free speech vs hate speech ( or politically incorrect views )  (Read 10881 times)

Bubbles

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Re: Free speech vs hate speech ( or politically incorrect views )
« Reply #50 on: February 02, 2016, 02:08:26 PM »
What because a European country is going to descend into the state that Syria is in?

Stark raving, swivel eyed, fear-mongering nonsense.

You need to get a grip on yourself.

and you need to stop being complacent and have a look at Europe less than a generation ago.

Just because you think it cant happen again, doesn't make you right.

« Last Edit: February 02, 2016, 02:10:57 PM by Rose »

Aruntraveller

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Re: Free speech vs hate speech ( or politically incorrect views )
« Reply #51 on: February 02, 2016, 02:10:47 PM »
and you need to stop being complacent and have a look at Europe less than a generation ago.

Just because you think it cant happen again, doesn't make you right.

Woe, woe and thrice woe.

Well if the immigrants don't get us - global warming will. So why worry.

PS And just because you think it can happen doesn't make you right either.
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

Bubbles

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Re: Free speech vs hate speech ( or politically incorrect views )
« Reply #52 on: February 02, 2016, 02:12:52 PM »
Woe, woe and thrice woe.

Well if the immigrants don't get us - global warming will. So why worry.

PS And just because you think it can happen doesn't make you right either.

No but at least I am prepared to find out, and try and stop it happening, by joining things that try and draw attention to it, and stop it.



« Last Edit: February 02, 2016, 02:14:23 PM by Rose »

Rhiannon

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Re: Free speech vs hate speech ( or politically incorrect views )
« Reply #53 on: February 02, 2016, 02:17:59 PM »
No but at least I am prepared to find out, and try and stop it happening, by joining things that try and draw attention to it, and stop it.

Which 'things'?

Aruntraveller

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Re: Free speech vs hate speech ( or politically incorrect views )
« Reply #54 on: February 02, 2016, 02:23:24 PM »
No but at least I am prepared to find out, and try and stop it happening, by joining things that try and draw attention to it, and stop it.

Stop what happening? Cologne happening? You did well there.

You think you are the only one to have the intention and ability to find things out? My aren't you just the superwoman of our age.

One way and another, for quite a lot of my life on various issues I've been doing that Rose as do many other people - so no holier than thou proclamations please.
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

Bubbles

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Re: Free speech vs hate speech ( or politically incorrect views )
« Reply #55 on: February 02, 2016, 03:04:17 PM »
Stop what happening? Cologne happening? You did well there.

You think you are the only one to have the intention and ability to find things out? My aren't you just the superwoman of our age.

One way and another, for quite a lot of my life on various issues I've been doing that Rose as do many other people - so no holier than thou proclamations please.

I was just about to post my reply to Rhiannon's question, which was about my belonging to various groups who I perceive as trying to create a situation where people meet and hopefully become more aware of each others basic humanity and dispelling stereotypes.

Given your sarcastic reply, I can see that anything I said would probably be seen by you as a"holier than thou proclamation".

We obviously don't value the same things, and if you can't even see that there is a danger in Europe of prejudice spilling over, I doubt you would be able to see the point of small steps in supporting something, which is hoping to stop it.

I find it disturbing you think such people are swivel eyed loons...............
I'm outta here









« Last Edit: February 02, 2016, 03:08:21 PM by Rose »

Aruntraveller

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Re: Free speech vs hate speech ( or politically incorrect views )
« Reply #56 on: February 02, 2016, 03:29:07 PM »
Quote
We obviously don't value the same things, and if you can't even see that there is a danger in Europe of prejudice spilling over, I doubt you would be able to see the point of small steps in supporting something, which is hoping to stop it.

Oh I can and do see the danger of prejudice spilling over - I just don't see from your posts how you are going to stop that. If you have concrete suggestions why not post them instead of concentrating on the irrelevancies of whether or not CH is offensive. And it is irrelevant - whatever CH or some other group publish is going to be offensive to some groups even if it's just fluffy pictures of kittens.

Sorry you feel the need to be outta here - it wasn't my intention for that to happen.
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

Enki

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Re: Free speech vs hate speech ( or politically incorrect views )
« Reply #57 on: February 02, 2016, 10:01:44 PM »
Satire, as Shaker suggests, is a genre which can easily lead to unforseen consequences because it relies upon saying  or suggesting (often outrageous) things whilst actually trying to draw attention to a much more nuanced argument which can often be in direct contrast to that stated. Hence, I see the work of a satirist has to be particularly skilled if the point actually being made comes across to the chosen audience.

Two examples come to mind:

'Till Death Do us Part' satirised Alf Garnett's attitudes ruthlessly, and, I believe, partly succeeded in mocking his prejudiced, bigotted views. However, there were many people who actually saw Alf Garnett as some sort of hero, and, far from seeing their views being ridiculed, as Johnny Speight intended, they saw Alf as an honest working class character with views reflecting their own.

Jonathan Swift's 'A Modest Proposal' was an essay which proposed the idea of the poverty stricken Irish selling their young children and babies to well off people to be eaten by them in order to ease their own poverty. For me, this is a masterful piece of satire because Swift manages to get over the desperate conditions of the Irish poor, the inclusion of intricate cold hearted detail, and the callousness of the narrator while putting the idea of cannibalism on a seemingly practical commodity level.

My own thoughts on the CH cartoon are as follows. It is a rather ugly and ungainly attempt at being satirical at the temptation to stereotype migrants. It doesn't seem to have the quality of shaming those who hold the views expressed, because one is easily sidetracked by the simple unpleasantness of the juxtaposition of the dead child and the 'groping' adult. Hence it seems to come over as simply being distasteful.
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Shaker

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Re: Free speech vs hate speech ( or politically incorrect views )
« Reply #58 on: February 02, 2016, 10:13:31 PM »
Satire, as Shaker suggests, is a genre which can easily lead to unforseen consequences because it relies upon saying  or suggesting (often outrageous) things whilst actually trying to draw attention to a much more nuanced argument which can often be in direct contrast to that stated. Hence, I see the work of a satirist has to be particularly skilled if the point actually being made comes across to the chosen audience.

Two examples come to mind:

'Till Death Do us Part' satirised Alf Garnett's attitudes ruthlessly, and, I believe, partly succeeded in mocking his prejudiced, bigotted views. However, there were many people who actually saw Alf Garnett as some sort of hero, and, far from seeing their views being ridiculed, as Johnny Speight intended, they saw Alf as an honest working class character with views reflecting their own.

The late Warren Mitchell of blessed memory used to tell the story about being approached in the street by - let's be frank here - middle-aged white working class men congratulating him for being in a programme having a go "at them Pakis and them coons."

"No, you moron," he used to reply, "we're making fun of cretins like you."
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Hope

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Re: Free speech vs hate speech ( or politically incorrect views )
« Reply #59 on: February 02, 2016, 10:14:48 PM »
The late Warren Mitchell of blessed memory used to tell the story about being approached in the street by - let's be frank here - middle-aged white working class men congratulating him for being in a programme having a go "at them Pakis and them coons."

"No, you moron," he used to reply, "we're making fun of cretins like you."
Heard that story some time a go, and had one of the best laughs I've ever had.  Some folk simply don't get satire!!
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ad_orientem

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Re: Free speech vs hate speech ( or politically incorrect views )
« Reply #60 on: February 03, 2016, 02:26:57 AM »
Where and when? With so many alleged examples to choose from it shouldn't be hard for you to provide a link or several.

Cologne for a start. And then from my country, there was a similar incident on New Year's Eve and nemerous rape cases. All these have been widely reported in the press.
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OH MY WORLD!

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Re: Free speech vs hate speech ( or politically incorrect views )
« Reply #61 on: February 03, 2016, 04:05:29 AM »
Would all those that saw that drowned little boy and thought, one less rapist to worry about, or sees any young middle eastern boy as a potential rapist of white European women, please raise your hands. Oh, I see all the staff of that Paris rag CH have their hands up. And their hands are so big the pigeons are landing on them and crapping on their heads.

The Economist arrived today and an article of free speech in Universities.


http://www.economist.com/news/united-states/21689603-statement-heart-debate-over-academic-freedom-hard-say
« Last Edit: February 03, 2016, 03:49:13 PM by OH MY WORLD! »

Udayana

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Re: Free speech vs hate speech ( or politically incorrect views )
« Reply #62 on: February 03, 2016, 10:13:57 AM »
...
Jonathan Swift's 'A Modest Proposal' was an essay which proposed the idea of the poverty stricken Irish selling their young children and babies to well off people to be eaten by them in order to ease their own poverty. For me, this is a masterful piece of satire because Swift manages to get over the desperate conditions of the Irish poor, the inclusion of intricate cold hearted detail, and the callousness of the narrator while putting the idea of cannibalism on a seemingly practical commodity level.

My own thoughts on the CH cartoon are as follows. It is a rather ugly and ungainly attempt at being satirical at the temptation to stereotype migrants. It doesn't seem to have the quality of shaming those who hold the views expressed, because one is easily sidetracked by the simple unpleasantness of the juxtaposition of the dead child and the 'groping' adult. Hence it seems to come over as simply being distasteful.

David Aaronovitch tried a take on this in the Times last week, putting an argument that the Syrian refugee crisis could be solved by sinking a few migrant boats:

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/opinion/columnists/article4676112.ece

It really doesn't work - it's not funny because it is too close to the lines along which people are thinking. The (il)logic needs to be blatant - as it was in 'Til death ...
Ah, but I was so much older then ... I'm younger than that now

Ricky Spanish

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Re: Free speech vs hate speech ( or politically incorrect views )
« Reply #63 on: February 03, 2016, 07:23:43 PM »
(had to space the letters as this site wont post certain phrases).....

Sex Exploitation.

sexploitation..

Lets me post your dirty words!!
« Last Edit: February 03, 2016, 07:40:06 PM by Thrud the Barbarian »
UNDERSTAND - I MAKE OPINIONS. IF YOUR ARGUMENTS MAKE ME QUESTION MY OPINION THEN I WILL CONSIDER THEM.

Bubbles

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Re: Free speech vs hate speech ( or politically incorrect views )
« Reply #64 on: February 04, 2016, 07:29:37 AM »
Sex Exploitation.

sexploitation..

Lets me post your dirty words!!

That's odd.

 ???

Shaker

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Re: Free speech vs hate speech ( or politically incorrect views )
« Reply #65 on: February 04, 2016, 07:34:59 AM »
Cologne for a start. And then from my country, there was a similar incident on New Year's Eve and nemerous rape cases. All these have been widely reported in the press.
Indeed, but so what, frankly? These incidents, however horrible individually, say nothing about all refugees, refugees generally.

Anybody stupid enough to think this way is unlikely to understand that they're committing the fallacy of composition, which is to take something true of part (in this case, a vanishingly small number of refugees) and make it true of the whole (that is to say, all refugees). And that's a very dim way to think indeed.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

ad_orientem

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Re: Free speech vs hate speech ( or politically incorrect views )
« Reply #66 on: February 04, 2016, 10:12:32 AM »
Indeed, but so what, frankly? These incidents, however horrible individually, say nothing about all refugees, refugees generally.

Anybody stupid enough to think this way is unlikely to understand that they're committing the fallacy of composition, which is to take something true of part (in this case, a vanishingly small number of refugees) and make it true of the whole (that is to say, all refugees). And that's a very dim way to think indeed.

No one said all refugees. What is clear, however, and which seems to be ignored by some is the fact those coming from Africa and the Middle-East are many more times likely to commit rape than Europeans.
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