The Lord's Prayer

[Khatru]

Why is there a line in it where believers ask the supreme cosmic mega being not to lead them into temptation?

Is their god likely to do that?

[Leonard James]

Why is there a line in it where believers ask the supreme cosmic mega being not to lead them into temptation?

Is their god likely to do that?

I suppose he must be, otherwise they wouldn't ask him not to. Never thought about that! 

Just one more contradiction in the farce that is Christianity.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Why is there a line in it where believers ask the supreme cosmic mega being not to lead them into temptation?

Is their god likely to do that?

I guess it is a statement repudiating hedonism where the hedonist runs willingly into all kinds of situations for the thrill of it, irrespective of ultimately hurting themselves or others ......

[Rhiannon]

And it's God that leads the hedonist there?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

And it's God that leads the hedonist there?

God provides life and I'm afraid life is full of temptations.

I think you are viewing God in kind of semi deterministic sense here. It seems a recognition of human propensity rather than something God imposes. Therefore it is a statement of intent.

Didn't you study theology, what is your take on it?

[Gordon]

I guess it is a statement repudiating hedonism where the hedonist runs willingly into all kinds of situations for the thrill of it, irrespective of ultimately hurting themselves or others ......

Would that be you speaking from experience, Vlad?

[Rhiannon]

God provides life and I'm afraid life is full of temptations.

I think you are viewing God in kind of semi deterministic sense here. It seems a recognition of human propensity rather than something God imposes. Therefore it is a statement of intent.

Didn't you study theology, what is your take on it?

It's a contradiction - God leading someone into temptation is a different thing to having temptation around us.

My take on it is that it reflects the prayer writer's personal struggle with temptation and where it comes from. You don't need a degree in theology to understand that though.

[jeremyp]

God provides life and I'm afraid life is full of temptations.

So it is pointless asking God not to lead us to temptation, because he has already done it.

I think you are viewing God in kind of semi deterministic sense here. It seems a recognition of human propensity rather than something God imposes. Therefore it is a statement of intent.

Ah, the old "you can't understand God, so shut up" fallacy.

Didn't you study theology, what is your take on it?

Why is theology necessary to understand a prayer meant for everybody to use? Jesus' communication skills must have been a bit shit.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

It's a contradiction - God leading someone into temptation is a different thing to having temptation around us.

My take on it is that it reflects the prayer writer's personal struggle with temptation and where it comes from. You don't need a degree in theology to understand that though.

Yes I'd broadly agree.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Ah, the old "you can't understand God, so shut up" fallacy.

Not at all.....I did ask Rhiannon to give her take on it........hardly a request to shut up......

I think you have committed the old '' Asking someone to say something is the same as telling them to shut up'' Fallacy.

[jeremyp]

Not at all.....I did ask Rhiannon to give her take on it........hardly a request to shut up......

I think you have committed the old '' Asking someone to say something is the same as telling them to shut up'' Fallacy.

Any thoughts on Jesus' woeful communication skills?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Any thoughts on Jesus' woeful communication skills?

No

[Rhiannon]

Yes I'd broadly agree.

So if it's a personal prayer how does that work as a prayer for the whole of humanity?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

So if it's a personal prayer how does that work as a prayer for the whole of humanity?

I don't fully know what you're angle is here. Can you expand on what you are trying to get at.

[Rhiannon]

I don't fully know what you're angle is here. Can you expand on what you are trying to get at.

I don't have an angle. It's just that Christianity presents The Lord's Prayer as the universal prayer for all of us - we are all supposed to be God's children - but this is a very personal prayer. AB for example believes temptation comes from the devil and not God. Back in the day I thought that temptation was my own human weakness and I wasn't being led by anything - still believe that as a non-Christian. It's a one-prayer-fits-all that doesn't.

[Khatru]

I suppose he must be, otherwise they wouldn't ask him not to. Never thought about that! 

Just one more contradiction in the farce that is Christianity.

Inded.

Those contradictions are plentiful and go to show that the Bible is the word of man and not of a cosmic supremo.

[Khatru]

I guess it is a statement repudiating hedonism where the hedonist runs willingly into all kinds of situations for the thrill of it, irrespective of ultimately hurting themselves or others ......

So, although the prayer, ostensibly, is asking a specific question to the believer's deity of choice; you're saying it's not that.

Do we apply this view to the rest of the prayer where it addresses the believers god?

"Give us, each day, our daily bread", "Deliver us from evil", etc. 

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I don't have an angle. It's just that Christianity presents The Lord's Prayer as the universal prayer for all of us - we are all supposed to be God's children - but this is a very personal prayer. AB for example believes temptation comes from the devil and not God. Back in the day I thought that temptation was my own human weakness and I wasn't being led by anything - still believe that as a non-Christian. It's a one-prayer-fits-all that doesn't.

Occasionally the vicar might talk of the Lord's prayer as the family prayer....but is that the Christian family or the human family?

The line deals with the possibility of temptation and the desire not to fall into it.
I can identify with the possibility of ''a fall'' and ''falling'' or even ''the fall'' but not everybody does.....for example a week or two back a poster described his realisation of having fallen....only to be told by non believing posters that he wasn't and he hadn't.............The Lord's prayer is I would move .....on this line only really grasped by people in repentant mode.

I think the fact that we are talking about it now is a good thing. My own take is that the Lord's prayer is a human family prayer waiting in all our ''lockers''
for the appropriate time and from the appropriate place.....the ''heart''.

[john]

I am glad I was forced to memorise this prayer as a child and that it is firmly stored away in my memory banks.

It will be easily accessed if I am ever under attack by vampires , the ability to recite it might help!

[jeremyp]

No

So the most important prayer that you have makes no sense (except with advanced theology apparently) and you have no thoughts about it.

This is one of the biggest problems with Christianity, it discourages thinking.

[Sassy]

Why is there a line in it where believers ask the supreme cosmic mega being not to lead them into temptation?

Is their god likely to do that?

I suppose we only have to look at what happened with Christ...

Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.

God knew that both Adam and Eve would be tempted as he did Christ.
Adam failed but Christ didn't.

Temptation will all be part of life but since Christ Satan can no longer accuse even though he will try his best to tempt people away from Christ. As we see the things of the world is what Satan uses to tempt people.

I think it is clear the prayer asks God not to let us go into temptation.

[Rhiannon]

I am glad I was forced to memorise this prayer as a child and that it is firmly stored away in my memory banks.

It will be easily accessed if I am ever under attack by vampires , the ability to recite it might help!

I tried to run through it earlier and got muddled. I knew I was getting older, but seriously?

[Rhiannon]

Occasionally the vicar might talk of the Lord's prayer as the family prayer....but is that the Christian family or the human family?

The line deals with the possibility of temptation and the desire not to fall into it.
I can identify with the possibility of ''a fall'' and ''falling'' or even ''the fall'' but not everybody does.....for example a week or two back a poster described his realisation of having fallen....only to be told by non believing posters that he wasn't and he hadn't.............The Lord's prayer is I would move .....on this line only really grasped by people in repentant mode.

I think the fact that we are talking about it now is a good thing. My own take is that the Lord's prayer is a human family prayer waiting in all our ''lockers''
for the appropriate time and from the appropriate place.....the ''heart''.

You are mistaking falling - screwing up - with being fallen - being worthless. One dies not follow the other.

You also assume that non-believers don't regret and atone for what they do. But praying is a pretty useless way of doing anything about the hurt that one has caused. Arguably it's dodging the issue - I'm ok with God so people don't matter.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I am glad I was forced to memorise this prayer as a child

I don't quite believe that....are you bullshitting?

[Shaker]

The line deals with the possibility of temptation and the desire not to fall into it.

Speak for yourself. I prefer the version (by whoever-it-was): "Lead me not into temptation - I can find my own way, thanks."