Author Topic: The Lord's Prayer  (Read 45739 times)

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: The Lord's Prayer
« Reply #125 on: February 09, 2016, 09:36:45 AM »
Hope,

Quote
No he hasn't, Matt because...

Why would a benevolent god who could do the right thing anyway choose to do so only selectively by drafting a set of instructions for supplicants to recite on their knees to which "He" may or may not respond?
« Last Edit: February 09, 2016, 10:51:42 AM by bluehillside »
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ippy

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Re: The Lord's Prayer
« Reply #126 on: February 09, 2016, 11:19:34 AM »
Well, for one thing, Matt seems to assume that practices in the Church that occurred whilst he was attending church are 1) still used and 2) typical of all churches.  Now, I don't know what denemonation he used to belong to but most denominations have theologically 'high' and 'low' forms.  Which extreme was the church he attended closer to?  What versions of the Bible is he conversant with?  Was he brought up on the KJV only, or the KJV and the Revised Standard Version or the Amplified Bible; is he conversant with the Good News Bible, or the New International Version - or perhaps even 'The Message' version?  I suspect he is working from the KJV and the RSV - much as you probably are.

To pick a term from previous posts, linguistically, these versions are now obsolete, in the same way that Shakesparean English is obsolete.

Why does it matter?

lppy

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Re: The Lord's Prayer
« Reply #127 on: February 09, 2016, 11:35:31 AM »
Why is there a line in it where believers ask the supreme cosmic mega being not to lead them into temptation?

Is their god likely to do that?

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jeremyp

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Re: The Lord's Prayer
« Reply #128 on: February 10, 2016, 06:58:48 AM »
It is for our salvation though isn't it not God's. God could let us just turn into the discarnate human remains which sloughs itself into hell that is the corrupted remains of the self

God only engineers his own death in the same sense that anyone who is prepared to lay down his life to save others engineers his or her own death.
Why did God need to lay down his life? You seem to be suggesting that God doesn't make the rules.
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Owlswing

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Re: The Lord's Prayer
« Reply #129 on: February 10, 2016, 07:42:33 AM »
Well, for one thing, Matt seems to assume that practices in the Church that occurred whilst he was attending church are 1) still used and 2) typical of all churches.  Now, I don't know what denemonation (sic) he used to belong to but most denominations have theologically 'high' and 'low' forms.  Which extreme was the church he attended closer to?  What versions of the Bible is he conversant with?  Was he brought up on the KJV only, or the KJV and the Revised Standard Version or the Amplified Bible; is he conversant with the Good News Bible, or the New International Version - or perhaps even 'The Message' version?  I suspect he is working from the KJV and the RSV - much as you probably are.

To pick a term from previous posts, linguistically, these versions are now obsolete, in the same way that Shakesparean English is obsolete.

It is only obsolete so that you do not have to admit that "lead us not into temptation" doesn't mean what it says.

And, talking of obsolescence - the name "Matt" (or "Matty") is obsolete and has been for some time, except as a patheitic attempt to wind me up!

High Church Anglican and the KJV
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Hope

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Re: The Lord's Prayer
« Reply #130 on: February 10, 2016, 09:31:03 AM »
It is only obsolete so that you do not have to admit that "lead us not into temptation" doesn't mean what it says.

... High Church Anglican and the KJV
OK, Matt, let's take the last bit first.  The KJV has been shown to include a number of translation errors and idiosyncracies and is known to have been based on limited comparative material.  For what it was based on, it wasn't too bad - but during the intervening 410 years, there have been many discoveries of additional material that can used for comparison. The most recent would be the Dead Sea Scrolls, but there have been many others.

As a result, its not a matter of " ... so that you do not have to admit that "lead us not into temptation" doesn't mean what it says"; its a matter of whether 1) the Greek word translated by the KJV translated as 'lead' actually meant that and 2) whether the word 'lead' in Shakespearean English - when used in this context - meant what it means today.

Quote
Extra-biblical sources

Prior to the 19th century, textual analysis of the Bible itself was the only tool available to extract and evaluate whatever historical data it contained. The past two hundred years, however, have seen a proliferation of new sources of data and analytical tools, including:

    Other Near Eastern texts, documents and inscriptions
    The material remains recovered throughout the Near East by archaeological excavation,
    analysed by ever more sophisticated technical and statistical apparatus
    Historical geography, demography, soil science, technology studies, and comparative linguistics
    Anthropological and sociological modelling
    The Apocrypha, or non-canonical texts
More modern translations take the lessons of these discoveries into account, making them rather more accurate.  They may still have issues and uncertainties, but less than the KJV.

Quote
And, talking of obsolescence - the name "Matt" (or "Matty") is obsolete and has been for some time, except as a patheitic attempt to wind me up!
In case you haven't noticed, there are a number of posters who have, over the months, changed their 'posting-monickers' one or more times - but who are still referred to by their original names.  In some cases, they are even known by names that they carried on other forums.  I tend to carry these names over even when folk change their monickers.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2016, 09:36:04 AM by Hope »
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Khatru

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Re: The Lord's Prayer
« Reply #131 on: February 10, 2016, 09:52:32 AM »

I think it is clear the prayer asks God not to let us go into temptation.

Ah, OK.

Except that the prayer doesn't say "let us not go into temptation" but "lead us not into temptation"
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Khatru

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Re: The Lord's Prayer
« Reply #132 on: February 10, 2016, 09:55:10 AM »
If any of that was true it just goes to prove what an evil so and so the deity is!

Indeed.  Scheming and plotting to have your son brutally killed is pretty dire!
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Khatru

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Re: The Lord's Prayer
« Reply #133 on: February 10, 2016, 10:03:31 AM »
If god's love were unconditional he wouldn't have required the sacrifice of his own son. That's the opposite of unconditional.

God cannot be a villain to people for whom god does not exist.

Spot on!

As a minimum, the love of the Bible god is subject to submission and conformity.
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Khatru

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Re: The Lord's Prayer
« Reply #134 on: February 10, 2016, 10:06:16 AM »
No it isn't because it is people who are forgiven without condition.

Since Jesus is God the only conditions required by God are on and of God himself.

Your forgiveness by God is unconditional. The way back to God is now open.

So it's like this:

"Humanity!  Thou has deeply offended me. Here, taketh my only son and kill him horribly so that I mayest forgive you."
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Leonard James

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Re: The Lord's Prayer
« Reply #135 on: February 10, 2016, 10:15:41 AM »
So it's like this:

"Humanity!  Thou has deeply offended me. Here, taketh my only son and kill him horribly so that I mayest forgive you."

Try as you may, you will not get them to see that their "God" is a despicable old tyrant. They have been brainwashed with too many "justification" arguments.

Khatru

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Re: The Lord's Prayer
« Reply #136 on: February 10, 2016, 10:21:00 AM »
And yet the Son on the Cross cried out 'My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?' To ignore that is to reduce the sacrifice to a 'happy ever after' fairy tale. But to accept it you have to accept it as unjust and unnecessary.

I guess it depends on what book you're reading.

In his book "Jesus Interrupted", Bart Ehrman highlights a fundamental contradiction:

The death of Jesus as recounted in Mark 15:16-39 is notable in that Jesus doesn't say a word until he utters what has become known as "The Cry Of Dereliction". This is a Jesus who doesn't know what's going on and genuinely wants to know why God has left him like this. It's a Jesus full of despair and that's how he dies.

Compare that to how Luke tells it (Luke 23:26-49) and you'll see that Jesus is anything but silent. Even when he's nailed to the cross Jesus knows what the score is and he appears to be in communion with God as he tells his father to forgive them. Then Jesus says "Father, into your hands I commend my spirit".

How different to the forsaken and abandoned Jesus depicted by Mark! Luke's version of Jesus knows exactly what's going on and has no need to cry out " "Eloi Eloi lama sabachthani?"

In Mark, Jesus has been rejected by everyone. Betrayed by one of his own and denied three times by his closest follower. He was mocked by the priests, rejected by the Jews and condemned by the Romans. Even those being crucified with him, mocked Jesus. At the end, Jesus is in agony and despair and he's unsure of the reasons why he has to die. 

This is what Mark portrayed - a lost and abandoned Jesus. It's not for nothing that the quote you made is often known as the "Cry of Dereliction"

All-in-all, quite contradictory to Jesus' death scene in Luke. 

Here we see a Jesus who has no need to ask God why he's been forsaken. This Jesus knows the reason he must die and he spends his dying moments showing more concern for others than for himself.

Rather than uttering a cry of despairing hopelessness ("Why have you forsaken me?"), in Luke, Jesus prays to God and says "Father, into your hands I commend my spirit". This is not the forsaken, abandoned and confused Jesus of Mark, rather, Luke tells us about but a Jesus who knows full well why he has to die and is fully aware of the reasons why he is suffering so.

I don't believe in what the Bible has to say but I do feel that each author that contributed their specific piece was their own person.

These peoples were individuals and they were saying it in the way they wanted to say it. We should let them have their say, even if it throws up discrepancies, inconsistencies and contradictions in the narratives.
What believer like to do is make one overarching story of Jesus from what are, in some cases, quite different accounts. In their take on the Gospels, Jesus says and does everything that they say he did.

So, whatever messages that Mark, Luke, etc, where trying to convey tend to get glossed over by believers and become lost in translation.  Looking at the stories their way means stripping the writers of their integrity as an author and replacing the author's meaning with their own.
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Khatru

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Re: The Lord's Prayer
« Reply #137 on: February 10, 2016, 10:26:23 AM »
Try as you may, you will not get them to see that their "God" is a despicable old tyrant. They have been brainwashed with too many "justification" arguments.

Tyrant right enough.

Being a Christian means defending genocide and infanticide.  It means you approve of the murder of homosexuals, as well as anyone else who wishes to exercise religious freedom.
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Leonard James

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Re: The Lord's Prayer
« Reply #138 on: February 10, 2016, 10:28:23 AM »
Tyrant right enough.

Being a Christian means defending genocide and infanticide.  It means you approve of the murder of homosexuals, as well as anyone else who wishes to exercise religious freedom.

Hopefully, this century will see the demise of such despicable thinking.

wigginhall

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Re: The Lord's Prayer
« Reply #139 on: February 10, 2016, 10:33:23 AM »
Tyrant right enough.

Being a Christian means defending genocide and infanticide.  It means you approve of the murder of homosexuals, as well as anyone else who wishes to exercise religious freedom.

Not really.   Many Christians support equal marriage and so on, and are quite liberal really.   
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Leonard James

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Re: The Lord's Prayer
« Reply #140 on: February 10, 2016, 10:36:34 AM »
Not really.   Many Christians support equal marriage and so on, and are quite liberal really.

And the frothy-mouthed ones say that the liberals are not really Christians.

Sassy

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Re: The Lord's Prayer
« Reply #141 on: February 10, 2016, 10:44:28 AM »
Quote
Quote from: Sassy on February 07, 2016, 01:40:40 PM
I suppose we only have to look at what happened with Christ...

God knew that both Adam and Eve would be tempted as he did Christ.
Adam failed but Christ didn't.

Temptation will all be part of life but since Christ Satan can no longer accuse even though he will try his best to tempt people away from Christ. As we see the things of the world is what Satan uses to tempt people.

I think it is clear the prayer asks God not to let us go into temptation.





If any of that was true it just goes to prove what an evil so and so the deity is!

It isn't really a logical reply that, Floo.

After all you never asked your parents to have you.
You say they tried to force you to do as they believed.
By your comment it makes your parents wrong to have given birth to you and allowing you your own choice and rebellion against their faith and them.


The basic truth is God created us, he created your parents and he created you.
He allowed you to choose. Why should it be different for Adam etc?

You need to think about these things.
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Sassy

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Re: The Lord's Prayer
« Reply #142 on: February 10, 2016, 10:50:10 AM »
It's not a caricature Vlad, but even if it were it's not God-dodging.

The rest is a cop-out. 'Gravity' of sin where nothing wrong is done or a cosmic get-out-of jail-free card to make believers feel better about themselves, with little cost (or cost directed up the wrong places) and often at the expense of others.

Nah! That there is the cop out. What you have said...
You claim to be educated and ex-Christian who has studied the higher and refined nature of those beliefs.
Yet your answer shows no such education having been attained.

You blame your belief and lack of belief on everything but your self.

That there in itself shows you and you alone control what you believe. It is according to how you life is and not the truth of the word of God or how it reflects in the world and your life.

You cannot claim such things in the statements you have made about "knowing God and the bible".
You have no rights or arguments against the truth which you can use. Because you claimed to know God and believe in the bible. But NOTHING you say or do actually shows any evidence that you ever did.

NO! NO! NO! You don't get to make those claims in the absence of truth that you ever knew anything about God and faith in the first instance.  Claim all you want you simply do not have the knowledge that would prove you answer from wisdon or education of such matters.
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Sassy

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Re: The Lord's Prayer
« Reply #143 on: February 10, 2016, 10:52:35 AM »
Vlad,

People forgiving isn't the same as all the god stuff. You can't compare the two.

Also, if God forgives unconditionally then why the Crucifixion? That isn't unconditional by any definition.

IF YOU has ever studied the word of God then you know that God and the Law is just and the righteous nature of the law had to be fully met. His love is unconditional in that though men failed and failed again he still made a way back once and for all.
Had you understood Spirit and Truth then you would not be lacking as you clearly are in Christian truth.

You made a mistake the error was to walk away from God and turn your back. Because your put yourself before him.
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Sassy

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Re: The Lord's Prayer
« Reply #144 on: February 10, 2016, 11:04:10 AM »
If god's love were unconditional he wouldn't have required the sacrifice of his own son. That's the opposite of unconditional.

God cannot be a villain to people for whom god does not exist.

Righteous demands of the law... Unconditional because the righteous demands of the law had to be met and you and no one else could fulfill that other than by dying the death you deserved.

So  Jesus Christ fulfilled the righteous demands of the law by being innocent and dying the death he had not earned and did not deserve.  It is simple and yet you don't know it and claim to have been a Christian and one who studied...

Gods existence is not what makes a villain a villain....

Gods existence is neither lessened or increased by what an atheist believes.

"I would rather live my life as if there is a god
 and die to find out their isn't, than live my life
as if there isn't and dies to find out there is"


A WISE man but what does it mean to live your life as if there is a God?

At the end of the line is where it counts...
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Owlswing

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Re: The Lord's Prayer
« Reply #145 on: February 10, 2016, 11:11:54 AM »

In case you haven't noticed, there are a number of posters who have, over the months, changed their 'posting-monickers' one or more times - but who are still referred to by their original names.  In some cases, they are even known by names that they carried on other forums.  I tend to carry these names over even when folk change their monickers.


Don't try and bullshit a bullshitter Hope!

There is only one other person who refers to me as "Matt", or, as I pointed out, "Matty", and that is because he is a troll who thinks that it annoys me - the idiot whom you so often champion (who changes his moniker more often than he changes his underwear) when I criticise him. Everybody else on this forum calls me Owlswing or Owl or Owly, so I am of the opinion that you call me Matt quite deliberately for the same reason as the troll.

As to the rest, you can, again as I have said, I am not interested in your opinions on the language, mis-translations (being a witch, I am well aware of the most blatant and deliberate and well-known "mis-translation" in the KJV) and obsolescence of language, the Lord's Prayer as quoted says TEMPTATION, you, if you are as erudite and educated as you claim, know fiull well that not one person in Christ knows how many thousands will know of any other meaning than the one that I and others have quoted and I have noticed that your friend has stepped back and let you do the arguing for him, probably because he saw that he was on a hiding to nothing.

You will go to almost any lengths to defend your God even to the point of trying to defend the indefensible. I have never seen a church bible set up on the pulpit lecturn that is not an illuminated edition of the KJV. While I am no longer be Christian I have friends who are and I attend their churches for christenings, funerals and weddings and the word TEMPTATION is still used in the LP.

Every twist, turn, wriggle and bullshit attempt make Christianity and its history what they are not makes me more convinced that I did the right thing in showing Christianity and it followers the rigid middle digit. I equate your defence of Christianity and it multitudinous failings and iniquities over the centuries to those who try to defend fox-hunting - defending the indefensible.

And please do not tell me that I am lumping different beliefs that are not the same together, yours and Ad_O's for instance, there is only one Christian God and only one Jesus Christ and it is, has been and ever was and ever will be their human followers who have used and use their (supposed) words as justification for murder, rape, paedophilia etc - many different loads of shit in a bucket are still shit!

You will steadfastly stick to your stance of Christianity being right as I will stick to mine that it is wrong! Wrong at so many levels.   
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Nearly Sane

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Re: The Lord's Prayer
« Reply #146 on: February 10, 2016, 11:18:39 AM »
Don't try and bullshit a bullshitter Hope!

There is only one other person who refers to me as "Matt", or, as I pointed out, "Matty", and that is because he is a troll who thinks that it annoys me - the idiot whom you so often champion (who changes his moniker more often than he changes his underwear) when I criticise him. Everybody else on this forum calls me Owlswing or Owl or Owly, so I am of the opinion that you call me Matt quite deliberately for the same reason as the troll.
.


Rhiannon did recently - see link


Hope may be many things but you're being unfair on him for this bit

http://www.religionethics.co.uk/index.php?topic=10933.msg588794#msg588794

floo

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Re: The Lord's Prayer
« Reply #147 on: February 10, 2016, 11:19:23 AM »
Try as you may, you will not get them to see that their "God" is a despicable old tyrant. They have been brainwashed with too many "justification" arguments.

I agree.

Owlswing

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Re: The Lord's Prayer
« Reply #148 on: February 10, 2016, 11:24:21 AM »

Rhiannon did recently - see link


Hope may be many things but you're being unfair on him for this bit

http://www.religionethics.co.uk/index.php?topic=10933.msg588794#msg588794

Don't pull that one - Rhi did it once! By accident!

Hope and the troll do it every time they are talking about me and in Hope's case he should remember that you are known by the company you keep; keep the company of a troll and dyed in the wool Christian fundamentalists . . .
The Holy Bible, probably the most diabolical work of fiction ever to be visited upon mankind.

An it harm none, do what you will; an it harm some, do what you must!

Khatru

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Re: The Lord's Prayer
« Reply #149 on: February 10, 2016, 11:26:19 AM »
Hopefully, this century will see the demise of such despicable thinking.

It would ne nice!
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