The Lord's Prayer

[Rhiannon]

If god's love were unconditional he wouldn't have required the sacrifice of his own son. That's the opposite of unconditional.

God cannot be a villain to people for whom god does not exist.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

The language that Vlad is using here is interesting - cancelling debts, accounts, restoration, and so on - it has a commercial or mercantile slant.  I suspect this goes back to ancient Judaism, but it was common in medieval theology, and also in the Reformation, for example, I think the Calvinists use it big time.  Possibly, it acquired a new momentum under capitalism.

However, it's not necessary to see forgiveness in such commercial terms, as cancelled debts and so on.  For example, you can talk about letting go of something, not a debt, but a grudge or a sense of hurt.

It's an analogy.

Yes I agree with your analogy of hanging on. hence the clinging by the antitheist to a caricature of Christianity where they have the moral high ground as a life preserver for the ego.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

If god's love were unconditional he wouldn't have required the sacrifice of his own son. That's the opposite of unconditional.

No it isn't because it is people who are forgiven without condition.

Since Jesus is God the only conditions required by God are on and of God himself.

Your forgiveness by God is unconditional. The way back to God is now open.

[Shaker]

Not everything is actually a caricature, Vlad - apart perhaps from your posts which make a caricature of reasoned disbelief in and rational disagreement with theism and turn it into antitheism or Stalinism or some other word of the week you don't understand.

[wigginhall]

It's an analogy.

Yes I agree with your analogy of hanging on. hence the clinging by the antitheist to a caricature of Christianity where they have the moral high ground as a life preserver for the ego.

Yes, it's an analogy, but some people who use it, see the language as intrinsic to the atonement, or forgiveness, and that other ways of looking at it, are wrong.    In other words, the forensic language (debt cancellation, substitution, justification),  is a central part of some theologies, where it's inconceivable that sin could be looked at in another way, esp. in Reformed theologies.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Not everything is actually a caricature, Vlad - apart perhaps from your posts which make a caricature of reasoned disbelief in and rational disagreement with theism and turn it into antitheism or Stalinism or some other word of the week you don't understand.

I do not equate reasoned disbelief with Stalinism. The worst I can say about reasoned disbelieve is that it's reasons seem to be poor.

The Stalinists are those wanting the eradication by any means of religion ( In Animal Farm the puppies were taken away to be separately educated in the ways of the new state).

And those who talk of religion in epidemiological or eugenic terms which suggest some kinf of future purely atheist population.

[Rhiannon]

No it isn't because it is people who are forgiven without condition.

Since Jesus is God the only conditions required by God are on and of God himself.

Your forgiveness by God is unconditional. The way back to God is now open.

The atonement makes no sense unless a punishment was required.

It would be more accurate to say that the sacrificial aspect of the understanding of Jesus' death makes sense if seen as the final and ultimate blood sacrifice as understood to be required by the god of the ancient Jewish people.

[Shaker]

I do not equate reasoned disbelief with Stalinism. The worst I can say about reasoned disbelieve is that it's reasons seem to be poor.

Good luck trying to explain why ... you'll need it.

The Stalinists are those wanting the eradication by any means of religion

And this description applies to whom, exactly? Be blunt. Name names. Stop waving the hands and start pointing the finger. Specify.

And those who talk of religion in epidemiological or eugenic terms which suggest some kinf of future purely atheist population.

That's cohort replacement which is part of sociological theory, not eugenics.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Yes, it's an analogy, but some people who use it, see the language as intrinsic to the atonement, or forgiveness, and that other ways of looking at it, are wrong.    In other words, the forensic language (debt cancellation, substitution, justification),  is a central part of some theologies, where it's inconceivable that sin could be looked at in another way, esp. in Reformed theologies.

Yes but lets try another analogy.

Somebody makes a comment one doesn't like on a message board.

One wants justice and restoration.

One tells the transgressor to f*** off, wear the term and identity of f***** disgrace and leave the board because of unworthiness.

Unconditional forgiveness would be to take it on the chin, swallow one's righteous sense of being hurt.

Now, although there is unconditional forgiveness from you I may remain unaffected in which case I have failed to respond to what you have done and I remain an unreconstructed oaf.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Good luck trying to explain why ... you'll need it.
And this description applies to whom, exactly? Be blunt. Name names. Stop waving the hands and start pointing the finger. Specify. That's cohort replacement which is part of sociological theory, not eugenics.

Well there's you. You want religion to disappear. you have said that you don't mind if that is through mere apathy so you are prepared for the eradication of religion by any means....even by the means of ''cohort replacement''....which sounds good but I can forsee it going the way of other faddish antitheist bullshit hypotheses.

In other words you are turning a sociological theory into a desire........and THAT my dear friend....is Stalinism.

[Shaker]

Well there's you. You want religion to disappear.

I'd be very happy if it did (though not equally - vastly more so with some than with others), but unsurprisingly you're already squirming. Let's not forget that you said:

The Stalinists are those wanting the eradication by any means of religion

you have said that you don't mind if that is through mere apathy so you are prepared for the eradication of religion by any means

Gradual attrition through apathy is not eradication because eradication implies and entails deliberate, conscious and purposive removal, though it's no surprise to me that it's another item in your lexicon of words that you don't understand.

....even by the means of ''cohort replacement''....which sounds good but I can forsee it going the way of other faddish antitheist bullshit hypotheses.

In other words you are turning a sociological theory into a desire........and THAT my dear friend....is Stalinism.

Cohort replacement (which is a observable sociological phenomenon, by the way, not a hypothesis) is descriptive, not prescriptive - it describes what actually happens, not whether it should or shouldn't.

The fact that in terms of the waning of religious belief I find it highly desirable is entirely separate

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I'd be very happy if it did (though not equally - vastly more so with some than with others), but unsurprisingly you're already squirming. Let's not forget that you said:
Gradual attrition through apathy is not eradication because eradication implies and entails deliberate, conscious and purposive removal, though it's no surprise to me that it's another item in your lexicon of words that you don't understand.
Cohort replacement (which is a observable sociological phenomenon, by the way, not a hypothesis) is descriptive, not prescriptive - it describes what actually happens, not whether it should or shouldn't.

The fact that in terms of the waning of religious belief I find it highly desirable is entirely separate

well i'll certainly be googling cohort replacement.

Come on though Shaker, cards on the table.....if there was a law to ban any public display of religion or involvement of any religion in the public sphere wouldn't you be secretly in favour?

Waning? Don't you really mean disappearance?

[Shaker]

well i'll certainly be googling cohort replacement.

You do that very thing. In fact, because I'm a generous chappy I'll even provide you with a few links:

https://goo.gl/uJfj29

http://goo.gl/qVMyM

http://goo.gl/wSrSNr

Come on though Shaker, cards on the table.....if there was a law to ban any public display of religion or involvement of any religion in the public sphere wouldn't you be secretly in favour?

No.

Waning? Don't you really mean disappearance?

Is there a difference?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

 
Is there a difference?

Yes waning is a decrease and disappearance is, er, disappearance.

[Shaker]

Yes waning is a decrease and disappearance is, er, disappearance.

So presumably a decrease can continue until it turns into a disappearance, yes? The same process but on a longer time scale, I'd have thought.

[jeremyp]

Somebody makes a comment one doesn't like on a message board.

One wants justice and restoration.

What do you mean by "restoration" in this context?

Unconditional forgiveness would be to take it on the chin, swallow one's righteous sense of being hurt.

Fine, but why is it necessary to engineer the death of your son in order to swallow your righteous sense of hurt?

[OH MY WORLD!]

The word temptation in Greek means to test. It does not always mean enticing to sin.

As we read here as well

"There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able..." 1Corinthians 10:13

Sorry atheists, pagans and others but this just isn't a puzzler nor contradiction.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

What do you mean by "restoration" in this context?
Fine, but why is it necessary to engineer the death of your son in order to swallow your righteous sense of hurt?

But the son is God.

Plus the fact you seem to be forgetting the consequence of sin on the perpetrator themselves i.e. progressive corruption of the self.

If I wronged you would expect restoration to be made by me. As humans I may well make some restoration but that is no guarantee that I have made enough or that you accept what is made.

In terms of engineering a death I think it was Socrates who suggested that a perfect being would invite assassination by the imperfect.

[Rhiannon]

And yet the Son on the Cross cried out 'My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?' To ignore that is to reduce the sacrifice to a 'happy ever after' fairy tale. But to accept it you have to accept it as unjust and unnecessary.

And no, very few people expect restorative justice. If you go through life wanting that you can expect a great deal of disappointment and bitterness.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

And yet the Son on the Cross cried out 'My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?' To ignore that is to reduce the sacrifice to a 'happy ever after' fairy tale. But to accept it you have to accept it as unjust and unnecessary.

And no, very few people expect restorative justice. If you go through life wanting that you can expect a great deal of disappointment and bitterness.

yes. He cries that because he has taken the consequences of sin....alienation....... onto himself.

I agree that the sacrifice is reduced....but those who reduce it in the worse way are those who say it was unnecessary because they cannot see sin for what it is and what it does.

Few people may expect it but I think all think they deserve it and that justice is right.

[OH MY WORLD!]

And don't ignore that Christ could have called the Angels to deliver Him but chose to be the blood sacrifice for our sin.

"Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;"   Hebrews 2:14

[Shaker]

And don't ignore that Christ could have called the Angels to deliver Him but chose to be the blood sacrifice for our sin.

As with the Gadarene swine, he did quite a few daft things according to the storybook.

[Rhiannon]

As with the Gadarene swine, he did quite a few daft things according to the storybook.

Unless you accept that the story of the Gaderene swine is a satirical reference to one of the Roman legions. But then you'd have needed to be there to get the in-joke.

[Samuel]

I realise the conversation has moved on but isn't the 'lead us not into temptation' bit just a request for God to help people avoid it? i don't think it's meant to imply God tempts people, just that Christians are keen to avoid temptation if they can.

I always quite liked the Lord's Prayer. Mainly for the 'forgive us...' line, which includes the expectation the prayer will be forgiving themselves.

[bluehillside Retd.]

OMW,

And don't ignore that Christ could have called the Angels to deliver Him but chose to be the blood sacrifice for our sin.

Always good to see the return of an old favourite - I see the reification fallacy is getting a good outing here.

Welcome back old chum - asserting personal faith beliefs with the preface "don't forget" or similar as if they're facts never tires does it.