Author Topic: The Lord's Prayer  (Read 45787 times)

Hope

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Re: The Lord's Prayer
« Reply #100 on: February 08, 2016, 02:18:47 PM »
So in HopeWorld you're allowed only to discuss things that you actually believe in?
Typical misrepresentation, Shakes.  Note the use of the phrase " ... who chooses to expound ..." in my original post.

Expound:
"Present and explain (a theory or idea) in detail". 
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/expound

To talk in detail about anything, one needs to have up-to-date knowledge and understanding of it; Matt clearly doesn't have either as far as Christianity is concerned.
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: The Lord's Prayer
« Reply #101 on: February 08, 2016, 02:25:12 PM »
Hope,

Quote
My understanding of standard orthodoxy is that the wording of the prayer was established by Jesus, the Messiah as anticipated by the Jews, (possibly on more than one occasion during his ministry) and recorded by two of the Gospel writers.  It is also orthodox understanding that the words may have been uttered in Aramaic originally, and translated into Koine Greek by the gospel writers - which have since been translated into Latin and then English (as far as we in the UK are concerned).

OK, so the orthodoxy is that it was "established" by a man/god, and therefore presumably has a divine imprimatur - and with it therefore some degree at least of inerrancy. Why then would a god effectively have to tell people who believe in him what to ask him for?

Doesn't that seem a bit circular to say the least and borderline sadistic to boot - "here's what I can do, but I'll only do it if you ask me to do it - preferably while on your knees" type of thing?   

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As for your second option, it is unlikely for the same reason that the idea of resurrection is unlikely to have been dreamed up by the disciples - the ideas were very different to traditional Jewish thought.

Ah, but that wasn't the question - I was just asking you for church orthodoxy on the matter. That in practice the thing was cobbled together by the credulous seems to me to be as overwhelmingly more likely to be the case as is the resurrection story being overwhelmingly likely to have been cobbled together by the credulous. But that's another matter.   
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Gordon

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Re: The Lord's Prayer
« Reply #102 on: February 08, 2016, 02:32:52 PM »
Sorry to disappoint you, Floo, but there is documentary evidence to the information, there is linguistic evidence that the recording of that information is 1st century AD in nature, as well literary evidence that the ideas that Jesus espoused, whilst based on Jewish thought, went a long way beyond them.  As I pointed out in the post you have responded to, the idea of resurrection was also one that was by no means mainstream Jewish thinking.

None of which excludes the possibility that the NT accounts, which have uncertain provenance and were written well after the event, contains mistakes or lies: a point you seem reluctant to address.

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Answer 1: If he had still been around today - 2000 years later - would that have convinced you of the reality of the documentary evidence?
Answer 2: History is full of people initiating ideas and then leaving those who support those ideas to teach them to other people.  Note that Answers 1 and 2 are not alternatives but complementary to each other.

Answer 1 is silly, since it isn't a point worth making in the first place. Answer 2 may well be the case but it fails to address both the risks of mistakes or lies in the original version and also the risk of message creep over time. 

You are still stuck with the problem of being able to demonstrate, as opposed to asserting or believing on a personal basis, that the NT contents you set such store by don't include mistakes and lies.   


Shaker

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Re: The Lord's Prayer
« Reply #103 on: February 08, 2016, 02:40:48 PM »
Sorry to disappoint you, Floo, but there is documentary evidence to the information

http://goo.gl/8oPzxc
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

floo

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Re: The Lord's Prayer
« Reply #104 on: February 08, 2016, 02:41:42 PM »
Sorry to disappoint you, Floo, but there is documentary evidence to the information, there is linguistic evidence that the recording of that information is 1st century AD in nature, as well literary evidence that the ideas that Jesus espoused, whilst based on Jewish thought, went a long way beyond them.  As I pointed out in the post you have responded to, the idea of resurrection was also one that was by no means mainstream Jewish thinking.
Answer 1: If he had still been around today - 2000 years later - would that have convinced you of the reality of the documentary evidence?
Answer 2: History is full of people initiating ideas and then leaving those who support those ideas to teach them to other people.  Note that Answers 1 and 2 are not alternatives but complementary to each other.

People have good imaginations, like you, my dear! The only recording of the life of Jesus is in the Gospels, which were written long after he kicked the bucket, so hardly evidence of any kind! Surely if Jesus had come back to life he would have presented himself to Pilot, Herod and lots of others? Historians of the time would have recorded this remarkable event if it had really happened, which they didn't. Before you mention Josephus he was born after Jesus died, I believe!

Shaker

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Re: The Lord's Prayer
« Reply #105 on: February 08, 2016, 02:42:01 PM »
To talk in detail about anything, one needs to have up-to-date knowledge and understanding of it
Which would be a novelty for a 2,000 year-old religion.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Owlswing

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Re: The Lord's Prayer
« Reply #106 on: February 08, 2016, 02:49:29 PM »
A bit hypocritical coming from someone who chooses to expound on a belief system that they don't believe in and whose experience of is - if their own posts are to be believed - some considerable time in the past.

Might I also point out that what I post is generally a distillation of information from other sources, such as commentaries and sermons, my own reading of the Bible, and discussions and debates with other Christians, atheists and religious non-Christians.

That is what I am saying - you have read everything, experienced everything and spoken to everybody and us poor mortals should shut T F up and listen to the Master! NO WAY!

You talk as if the Bible is totally and incontrovertably true in every respect. It has been pointed out to you more times than I can count and poke a stick at that this is patently incorrect and untrue but your total monumental arrogance will not allow you to admit that what you believe is nothing more than that, completely unprovable belief and faith.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2016, 02:55:01 PM by Owlswing »
The Holy Bible, probably the most diabolical work of fiction ever to be visited upon mankind.

An it harm none, do what you will; an it harm some, do what you must!

Owlswing

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Re: The Lord's Prayer
« Reply #107 on: February 08, 2016, 02:50:43 PM »

So in HopeWorld you're allowed only to discuss things that you actually believe in?


Of course!
The Holy Bible, probably the most diabolical work of fiction ever to be visited upon mankind.

An it harm none, do what you will; an it harm some, do what you must!

Owlswing

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Re: The Lord's Prayer
« Reply #108 on: February 08, 2016, 02:52:42 PM »


To talk in detail about anything, one needs to have up-to-date knowledge and understanding of it; Matt clearly doesn't have either as far as Christianity is concerned.



NO WRONG - as far as HOPE is concerned - why - because I disagree with him!
The Holy Bible, probably the most diabolical work of fiction ever to be visited upon mankind.

An it harm none, do what you will; an it harm some, do what you must!

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: The Lord's Prayer
« Reply #109 on: February 08, 2016, 05:13:06 PM »
Hope,

Quote
To talk in detail about anything, one needs to have up-to-date knowledge and understanding of it...

Somewhat ironic that given the basically mediaeval perspective of the theists here who reference "Satan", "angels" etc as causal agents for some of the the phenomena they perceive in nature. 
"Don't make me come down there."

God

SusanDoris

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Re: The Lord's Prayer
« Reply #110 on: February 08, 2016, 05:27:45 PM »
I'm following this thread - well, most of the posts - but the whole thing is very simple and straightforward as far as I'm concerned: no God, so said no-thing cannot ever have written anything, so the 'Lord's prayer' should be called the Human prayer.
The Most Honourable Sister of Titular Indecision.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: The Lord's Prayer
« Reply #111 on: February 08, 2016, 08:27:40 PM »
But the son is God.


OK, why is it necessary to engineer your own death in order to swallow your righteous sense of hurt?

It is for our salvation though isn't it not God's. God could let us just turn into the discarnate human remains which sloughs itself into hell that is the corrupted remains of the self

God only engineers his own death in the same sense that anyone who is prepared to lay down his life to save others engineers his or her own death.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: The Lord's Prayer
« Reply #112 on: February 08, 2016, 08:29:13 PM »
I'm following this thread - well, most of the posts - but the whole thing is very simple and straightforward as far as I'm concerned: no God, so said no-thing cannot ever have written anything, so the 'Lord's prayer' should be called the Human prayer.
Thanks for that....another toot on the bagpipes.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: The Lord's Prayer
« Reply #113 on: February 08, 2016, 08:36:39 PM »
Which would be a novelty for a 2,000 year-old religion.
Antiquity fallacy....where's Hillside............?

Shaker

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Re: The Lord's Prayer
« Reply #114 on: February 08, 2016, 08:40:13 PM »
Antiquity fallacy....where's Hillside............?
I don't know, but when you manage to find him, ask him to explain to you - extra slowly, in words of three syllables or fewer - what an argumentum ad antiquitatem is and why this isn't an example of one.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: The Lord's Prayer
« Reply #115 on: February 08, 2016, 08:43:02 PM »
I don't know, but when you manage to find him, ask him to explain to you - extra slowly, in words of three syllables or fewer - what an argumentum ad antiquitatem is and why this isn't an example of one.
Isn't it?.......darn........i'll have to find something else to stick on you.

Shaker

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Re: The Lord's Prayer
« Reply #116 on: February 08, 2016, 08:44:29 PM »
Isn't it?
Nope!

Quote
.......darn........i'll have to find something else to stick on you.
Best of luck!
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

OH MY WORLD!

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Re: The Lord's Prayer
« Reply #117 on: February 09, 2016, 12:00:29 AM »
Note the obsolete definition of tempt according to merriam webster.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/tempt

Owlswing

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Re: The Lord's Prayer
« Reply #118 on: February 09, 2016, 12:07:44 AM »
Note the obsolete definition of tempt according to merriam webster.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/tempt

Simple Definition of tempt

    : to cause (someone) to do or want to do something even though it may be wrong, bad, or unwise

Yeah - and far more inportantly to this discussion the definition of obsolete

no longer produced or used; out of date.

You have, quite conclusively, proved that I was right and you wrong - well done and thank you!

Hope - please note! Your confederate has just screwed you oiver!

END OF!


The Holy Bible, probably the most diabolical work of fiction ever to be visited upon mankind.

An it harm none, do what you will; an it harm some, do what you must!

OH MY WORLD!

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Re: The Lord's Prayer
« Reply #119 on: February 09, 2016, 01:52:19 AM »
How totally pig headed and wrong you are Matty. Do you realize much of your English will be obsolete one day? Are you so uneducated that you don't know your language evolves. Now tell me how the translators in the early 17th century could know that in 400 yrs time, trial and test, will no longer be definitions of temptation. They were definitions at the time and understood by the English speakers of that day. You are so childish, you would destroy the English of Shakespeare because you are too arrogant to admit the translators got it right. I pity you in your pig headed and angry misery.

Hope

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Re: The Lord's Prayer
« Reply #120 on: February 09, 2016, 08:40:25 AM »

NO WRONG - as far as HOPE is concerned - why - because I disagree with him!
But you seem to disagee with me and other Christians based on out-of-date, even incorrect, information regarding the nature of Christianity.
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floo

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Re: The Lord's Prayer
« Reply #121 on: February 09, 2016, 08:42:37 AM »
But you seem to disagee with me and other Christians based on out-of-date, even incorrect, information regarding the nature of Christianity.

What out of date information?

Hope

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Re: The Lord's Prayer
« Reply #122 on: February 09, 2016, 09:05:14 AM »
You have, quite conclusively, proved that I was right and you wrong - well done and thank you!

Hope - please note! Your confederate has just screwed you oiver!

END OF!
No he hasn't, Matt because, whilst the language you are referring to is obsolete in the 21st century, it was current at the time that the version of the Lord's Prayer we are talking about was translated from the original languages.

There is another issue with your argument.  The language that we are debating was used so that the ordinary people of 17th century England and other parts of the British Isles could read the Bible in their own language; after all, most of them didn't read, let alone understand Greek or Latin.  In much the same way, most of the newer versions have been produced so that people in the 20th and 21st centuries can "read the Bible in their own language" - we all know that Shakespearean English (the English that the King James Version is written in) is very difficult for 20th and 21st century Britons to understand properly.

It is interesting that whenever folk want to criticise some Biblical passage, they always seem to use the KJV rather than more modern versions; is this because they don't know about the more modern versions?  Is it because they were brought up at a point in time when the English language was developing far faster than it had over the previous couple of hundred years.

It is also worth noting that over the last 150 years or so, more examples of ancient documents have surfaced than over the previous 4 or 500 years providing a greater range of comparative material for scholars of Biblical and other studies to use in translation work.
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floo

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Re: The Lord's Prayer
« Reply #123 on: February 09, 2016, 09:18:25 AM »
The language of Shakespeare wasn't used for the version of the LP Jesus is supposed have created, if of course it was anything to do with him!

Hope

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Re: The Lord's Prayer
« Reply #124 on: February 09, 2016, 09:23:56 AM »
What out of date information?
Well, for one thing, Matt seems to assume that practices in the Church that occurred whilst he was attending church are 1) still used and 2) typical of all churches.  Now, I don't know what denemonation he used to belong to but most denominations have theologically 'high' and 'low' forms.  Which extreme was the church he attended closer to?  What versions of the Bible is he conversant with?  Was he brought up on the KJV only, or the KJV and the Revised Standard Version or the Amplified Bible; is he conversant with the Good News Bible, or the New International Version - or perhaps even 'The Message' version?  I suspect he is working from the KJV and the RSV - much as you probably are.

To pick a term from previous posts, linguistically, these versions are now obsolete, in the same way that Shakesparean English is obsolete.
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