Author Topic: The Lord's Prayer  (Read 45693 times)

Hope

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Re: The Lord's Prayer
« Reply #175 on: February 10, 2016, 10:17:27 PM »
Indeed.  Scheming and plotting to have your son brutally killed is pretty dire!
Who schemed and plotted to have their son brutally killed, Khatru?
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Hope

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Re: The Lord's Prayer
« Reply #176 on: February 10, 2016, 10:21:33 PM »
Spot on!

As a minimum, the love of the Bible god is subject to submission and conformity.
Whereas in reality, the love of the Bible god is all about self-sacrifice, grace, mercy and regular forgiveness.  Yes, there is discipline - and of course discipline is always all about 'submission and conformity' - ask any parent.   ;)
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Owlswing

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Re: The Lord's Prayer
« Reply #177 on: February 10, 2016, 10:22:51 PM »
Who schemed and plotted to have their son brutally killed, Khatru?

Your God! Who sent him to earth to die by crucifiction.
The Holy Bible, probably the most diabolical work of fiction ever to be visited upon mankind.

An it harm none, do what you will; an it harm some, do what you must!

Hope

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Re: The Lord's Prayer
« Reply #178 on: February 10, 2016, 10:30:20 PM »
So it's like this:

"Humanity!  Thou has deeply offended me. Here, taketh my only son and kill him horribly so that I mayest forgive you."
Except, of course, that isn't what "it's like".  To use yor rather naff format, it's 'Jews, you have greatly disappointed me by failing to do the job I chose you to do - to witness to me to those you live amongst.  You have regularly offered blood sacrifice to indicate your repentance of that failure, only to continue in it.  I am going to change the process I set in motion x00 years ago, by allowing you to use me as a final blood sacrifice that will make blood sacrifice obsolete once and for all - and open relationship with me to the very people you have chosen to ignore.'
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Hope

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Re: The Lord's Prayer
« Reply #179 on: February 10, 2016, 10:38:56 PM »
It seems ironic that the general population has become less homophobic, the national church, more.
Interestingly, when I speak with examples of the 'general population' about this issue, they often come up with points that they believe to be categorical scientific evidence - such as 'science tells us that homosexuality is hereditary', 'science has shown that (it) is purely genetic', 'to be anti-gay rights necessarily indicates that one is homophobic', etc.  When asked to define the word homophobic, the response is either (in my experience) "to be against homosexuality, even to regard homosexuality as 'wrong/a sin'" or 'to be afriad of homosexuals and homosexuality' which at least has the benefit of being closer to what a phobia is all about.
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Hope

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Re: The Lord's Prayer
« Reply #180 on: February 10, 2016, 10:42:01 PM »
What about the "death to gays" schtick in the OT? 
When a tribe depends on children being born for its survival, do you believe that gay (non-child producing) relationships should betreated the same way as child-producing ones?
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: The Lord's Prayer
« Reply #181 on: February 10, 2016, 10:45:47 PM »
Hope,

Quote
When a tribe depends on children being born for its survival, do you believe that gay (non-child producing) relationships should betreated the same way as child-producing ones?

That's a lot of stupid to cram into one sentence.

Do you want to see whether you can unpick it for yourself rather than rely on others to hold your hand through it?
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Shaker

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Re: The Lord's Prayer
« Reply #182 on: February 10, 2016, 10:46:26 PM »
Interestingly, when I speak with examples of the 'general population' about this issue, they often come up with points that they believe to be categorical scientific evidence - such as 'science tells us that homosexuality is hereditary', 'science has shown that (it) is purely genetic', 'to be anti-gay rights necessarily indicates that one is homophobic', etc.
If anecdotal evidence counts, as you seem to think it does, then absolutely nobody I've ever encountered has ever spoken in these terms. The bulk of the population aren't against homosexuality (a fatuous absurdity in itself - that's like being against blonde hair) or gay rights because they're generally fair-minded, tolerant, kindly people who respect difference and the right of people to pursue their happiness as they wish.

Or to say the same thing negatively, they're not narrow-minded, backward, discriminatory, almost inevitably Bible-thumping shitpies.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Shaker

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Re: The Lord's Prayer
« Reply #183 on: February 10, 2016, 10:47:21 PM »
Hope,

That's a lot of stupid to cram into one sentence.
He can do better than that.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: The Lord's Prayer
« Reply #184 on: February 10, 2016, 10:49:33 PM »
She did it nonetheless, and there was none of this 'you're insulting me' shite from you in that case.


As Hope has pointed out there are a couple of posters at least that get referred to by other names, Vlad more often than any of his names of the month, and while I have no great opinion of him......
The feeling is entirely mutual.

Shaker

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Re: The Lord's Prayer
« Reply #185 on: February 10, 2016, 10:50:57 PM »
When a tribe depends on children being born for its survival, do you believe that gay (non-child producing) relationships should betreated the same way as child-producing ones?
Since that's not the case any more, the point is irrelevant.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Hope

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Re: The Lord's Prayer
« Reply #186 on: February 10, 2016, 10:51:39 PM »
Tyrant right enough.

Being a Christian means defending genocide and infanticide.  It means you approve of the murder of homosexuals, as well as anyone else who wishes to exercise religious freedom.
Khatru, genocide has been carried out by people of faith and by atheists throughout history.  Likewise, infanticide has been carried out by people of all such persuasions. 

Acknowledging that such things occurred doesn't involve either condemnation or defence.

As for your last two comments, no Christian I know approves of murder, let alone the murder of people on the grounds of their sexual preference or behaviour.  Historically, many non-conformists were in the fore-front of defending the right to hold different or no religious beliefs.  Even the Anglican Church in England, though more of a political entity in its early days, became a place which supported freedom of religious thought - though I agree that some of its leaders seemed to want to go back to the 'bad ole days' of Catholic thought in this area.
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Hope

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Re: The Lord's Prayer
« Reply #187 on: February 10, 2016, 10:55:11 PM »
Or to say the same thing negatively, they're not narrow-minded, backward, discriminatory, almost inevitably Bible-thumping shitpies.
And many are also non-religious, fair- and forward-thinking, non-discriminatory and broad-minded.  I'm afraid that for every one of your description I know, I know one of my description.
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: The Lord's Prayer
« Reply #188 on: February 10, 2016, 10:57:44 PM »
Try as you may, you will not get them to see that their "God" is a despicable old tyrant.
S'funny Jeremy P is complaining that he is not in control.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: The Lord's Prayer
« Reply #189 on: February 10, 2016, 11:00:58 PM »
Tyrant right enough.

Being a Christian means defending genocide and infanticide.  It means you approve of the murder of homosexuals, as well as anyone else who wishes to exercise religious freedom.
Swivel eyed or what?

Shaker

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Re: The Lord's Prayer
« Reply #190 on: February 10, 2016, 11:03:01 PM »
And many are also non-religious, fair- and forward-thinking, non-discriminatory and broad-minded.
Not if they're against homosexuality and full gay equality, they're not, as that would be a contradiction in terms.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Hope

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Re: The Lord's Prayer
« Reply #191 on: February 10, 2016, 11:03:24 PM »
I know several people like that - they really struggle trying explain to people why the church is what it is, locked into antiquity and apparently incapable of getting out of it!
Owl, I know several people who really struggle to try to explain how encouraging people to dump their elderly parents in residential homes, encouraging people to spend more money than they have, encouraging people to think that body image is the only way to ensure happiness,  (not to mention several other common attitudes) is in any way good for society and the human race.  Furthermore, I can think of people who, whilst not being people of faith, applaud the church for speaking out against these same destructive attitudes.
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: The Lord's Prayer
« Reply #192 on: February 10, 2016, 11:11:09 PM »
Why did God need to lay down his life? You seem to be suggesting that God doesn't make the rules.
Again he did it for our sakes. We are in and of a cause and effect universe. Sin is the cause, dying in sin is the effect.....no doubt Hillside is on hand to bleat about consequentialism but that would be a dumb thing to do while arguing cause and effect.

That is why God has, as Jesus, to take on the sins of humanity.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: The Lord's Prayer
« Reply #193 on: February 10, 2016, 11:17:34 PM »
Shakes,

Quote
He can do better than that.

"Better" meaning even stupider?

Blimey!
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Shaker

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Re: The Lord's Prayer
« Reply #194 on: February 10, 2016, 11:18:15 PM »
Shakes,

"Better" meaning even stupider?

Blimey!
Oh yes  :o
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: The Lord's Prayer
« Reply #195 on: February 10, 2016, 11:19:49 PM »
Shakes,

Quote
Oh yes  :o

I think I'd have to lie down for that...
"Don't make me come down there."

God

jeremyp

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Re: The Lord's Prayer
« Reply #196 on: February 11, 2016, 07:16:57 AM »
When a tribe depends on children being born for its survival, do you believe that gay (non-child producing) relationships should betreated the same way as child-producing ones?
Yes.

What would you prefer? That the gay people be forced into heterosexual relationships they don't want, so the tribe can have more babies?

It's time you Christians realised that love and hate are not the same thing.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2016, 07:21:02 AM by jeremyp »
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jeremyp

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Re: The Lord's Prayer
« Reply #197 on: February 11, 2016, 07:20:20 AM »
Again he did it for our sakes. We are in and of a cause and effect universe. Sin is the cause, dying in sin is the effect.....no doubt Hillside is on hand to bleat about consequentialism but that would be a dumb thing to do while arguing cause and effect.

That is why God has, as Jesus, to take on the sins of humanity.

Yes but why is there a rule that Jesus had to die? Is God not in charge of the rules?
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Humph Warden Bennett

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Re: The Lord's Prayer
« Reply #198 on: February 11, 2016, 07:31:02 AM »
Why is there a line in it where believers ask the supreme cosmic mega being not to lead them into temptation?

Is their god likely to do that?

You can ask anything of God. Whether he grants your wish or not is another matter. Jesus prayed "My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; yet not as I will, but as [b]You will."[/b] (Matthew 26:39)


ProfessorDavey

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Re: The Lord's Prayer
« Reply #199 on: February 11, 2016, 07:43:11 AM »
When a tribe depends on children being born for its survival, do you believe that gay (non-child producing) relationships should betreated the same way as child-producing ones?
That completely misinterprets the whole of human evolutionary behaviour and society.

Human societies aren't set up to generate the most number of babies - rather humans have very few babies, in comparison to many other species - their societies are developed to provide the best opportunity that those babies survive through to adulthood, particularly during the early stages when they are extremely vulnerable and need both protection and later to learn from the rest of that society.

There is an evolutionary theory (which is rather convincing) that sexuality is determined in utero and is linked to earlier births (first born children being less likely to be gay). Given that gay people may not have children, but may support the upbringing of other children, this is entirely consistent with benefit to the overall human society and evolutionary drivers (the children of the earlier born being more likely to survive to adulthood).

But in an ethical sense the answer to the question 'do you believe that gay (non-child producing) relationships should be treated the same way as child-producing ones?' - absolutely, to think otherwise is abhorrent. Hope do you think that infertile people (non-child producing) should somehow not be treated the same in relationships as fertile couples?