Author Topic: The Lord's Prayer  (Read 45730 times)

Humph Warden Bennett

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Re: The Lord's Prayer
« Reply #225 on: February 11, 2016, 03:13:55 PM »
HWB,

But the comparison was to do with procreation, not consummation. Are there RC priests who would refuse to officiate if they knew the couple to be infertile?

Firing blanks is not consummation. A marriage can be annulled if one or other partner is sterile.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: The Lord's Prayer
« Reply #226 on: February 11, 2016, 03:20:58 PM »
Firing blanks is not consummation. A marriage can be annulled if one or other partner is sterile.
What has that to do with the legal basis of marriage. Nothing whatsoever.

As far as I am aware the law recognises non consummation as not having sex as grounds for annulment - whether or not one person was sterile is completely irrelevant. You cannot legally get an annulment on the basis of non consummation, if you had sex after you were married regardless of the fertility/infertility state of either partner.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: The Lord's Prayer
« Reply #227 on: February 11, 2016, 03:31:31 PM »
HWB,

Quote
Firing blanks is not consummation. A marriage can be annulled if one or other partner is sterile.

Good grief!

First, "consummation" just means having sex rather than conceiving.

Second, the argument that some priests would not officiate at a gay wedding because the couple would not have children collapses unless they'd refuse to officiate too when s straight couple would not have children for other reasons.   
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Owlswing

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Re: The Lord's Prayer
« Reply #228 on: February 11, 2016, 03:38:06 PM »
HWB,

Good grief!

First, "consummation" just means having sex rather than conceiving.

Second, the argument that some priests would not officiate at a gay wedding because the couple would not have children collapses unless they'd refuse to officiate too when s straight couple would not have children for other reasons.   

That's Catholic dogma not the law! It is the law that decides on annulments and divorces not the Church - another clue to the fact that marriage is a legal contract and not a religious one!

Henry VIII put a stop to that particular nonsense!
« Last Edit: February 11, 2016, 03:40:13 PM by Owlswing »
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jeremyp

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Re: The Lord's Prayer
« Reply #229 on: February 11, 2016, 03:44:44 PM »
The gov.uk page on annulment.

There's nothing in it about inability to have children.

https://www.gov.uk/how-to-annul-marriage/when-you-can-annul-a-marriage

It would be a bit bizarre if sterility was a valid reason for annulment because it would mean that any marriage involving a woman past the menopause at the time she got married could be annulled at any time.
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Owlswing

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Re: The Lord's Prayer
« Reply #230 on: February 11, 2016, 03:48:26 PM »
The gov.uk page on annulment.

There's nothing in it about inability to have children.

https://www.gov.uk/how-to-annul-marriage/when-you-can-annul-a-marriage

It would be a bit bizarre if sterility was a valid reason for annulment because it would mean that any marriage involving a woman past the menopause at the time she got married could be annulled at any time.

Or a blazing row if the wife underwent sterilisation or hysterectomy or the husband a vasectomy for medical reasons rather than personal choice.
The Holy Bible, probably the most diabolical work of fiction ever to be visited upon mankind.

An it harm none, do what you will; an it harm some, do what you must!

ProfessorDavey

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Re: The Lord's Prayer
« Reply #231 on: February 11, 2016, 03:54:40 PM »
The gov.uk page on annulment.

There's nothing in it about inability to have children.

https://www.gov.uk/how-to-annul-marriage/when-you-can-annul-a-marriage

It would be a bit bizarre if sterility was a valid reason for annulment because it would mean that any marriage involving a woman past the menopause at the time she got married could be annulled at any time.
Indeed legally (and lets face it that is the only thing that actually matters) sterility is no ground for annulment.

Humph Warden Bennett

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Re: The Lord's Prayer
« Reply #232 on: February 11, 2016, 04:18:39 PM »
That's Catholic dogma not the law! It is the law that decides on annulments and divorces not the Church - another clue to the fact that marriage is a legal contract and not a religious one!

Henry VIII put a stop to that particular nonsense!

You are quite correct that it is RC dogma! Blue was asking about RC rules, which is why I replied as above!

FTR in the Orthodox Church the consummation of the marriage is the crowning of the bride and groom.

Owlswing

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Re: The Lord's Prayer
« Reply #233 on: February 11, 2016, 04:49:27 PM »
You are quite correct that it is RC dogma! Blue was asking about RC rules, which is why I replied as above!

FTR in the Orthodox Church the consummation of the marriage is the crowning of the bride and groom.

Yeah - well - we've had/are having discussions on what the various Christian religions define certain words as meaning - usually it means to them nothing resembling the definition given in the OED (or any similar volume) except under the headings of "archaic" or "obsolete"!
The Holy Bible, probably the most diabolical work of fiction ever to be visited upon mankind.

An it harm none, do what you will; an it harm some, do what you must!

Sassy

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Re: The Lord's Prayer
« Reply #234 on: February 11, 2016, 05:05:06 PM »
You missed out the bit about how the love of the Bible god entails creating a torture pit, stocking it with demons, dropping conscious beings into fire, and keeping them conscious forever just to keep the suffering going to the benefit of nobody.

I suppose everyone in prison is innocent and that they are not there by choice when committing evil offences?
Those who go to hell go to hell by choice. You do realise the reality don't you. You realise you have a choice.
So stop moaning like a baby and sit up and realise there is a choice. God created hell for Satan, the Beast and Son of Perdition.
Anyone else does not have to be there.
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Re: The Lord's Prayer
« Reply #235 on: February 11, 2016, 05:09:19 PM »
Oh Sass get real! ::)

Sassy

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Re: The Lord's Prayer
« Reply #236 on: February 11, 2016, 05:14:44 PM »
Yes:

"Whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved"  Acts 2:21 & Romans 10:13

"Not everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved"  Matthew 7:21

"Only those whom the Lord chooses will be save"  Acts 2:39

As for wish granting:

Well, whatever god the 9/11 killers worshipped certainly granted their wish when they prayed for the success of their mission and to be ushered into paradise.

Ha Ha there is many battles in a war and no one battle wins the war by itself.

How is the 9/11 different to the holocaust of 1939 -1945?
Can you imagine babies thrown in the air and caught on bayonets of guns. What evil did they commit?
Did you see anyone rush in to save them? Did the soldiers refuse to do it?
What I see as  truth is everyone who gave their lives even those fighting and brought the plane down before it hit it's target who were Christians went to Paradise... The ones who caused it are in Hell.

They were lost before they carried out their mission but the believers were already saved before they died.
I guess your bragging soon got snuffed out. God isn't daft nor the people of this board. Come here to brag among the imbeciles have you. We are the children of God, we love our neighbour we don't kill them.
The victory is Gods and those who died will live and never suffer again.

What about you? The atheists and others on this board join in the condemning of such actions as the 1939-45 holocaust and the 9/11. The good unites whilst the evil divides...
Whatever men do good men will unite in the face of evil. It won't give it any other name... 9/11 was sheer cowardice. Might as well have shot them in the back...
We know we have to work together to abolish war and terrorism to create a compassionate  world in which Justice and peace prevail. Love ;D   Einstein
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Brownie

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Re: The Lord's Prayer
« Reply #237 on: February 11, 2016, 05:24:52 PM »
Firing blanks is not consummation. A marriage can be annulled if one or other partner is sterile.

I never knew that.  Seems a bit harsh to me, a kick in the teeth for the infertile person.  You don't know until you try whether or not you are fertile.

Someone I know had her marriage annulled because it was not consummated.  They tried all sorts of treatment (I dread to think what that was like), but it wasn't possible.  A sister of a colleague of mine had her marriage annulled because her husband was unfaithful a couple of weeks after the marriage - I suppose it was obvious he didn't take his vows seriously.

I found this on the internet and it doesn't mention infertility:

https://www.gov.uk/how-to-annul-marriage/when-you-can-annul-a-marriage

and this, which says much the same:

http://findlaw.co.uk/law/family/divorce_and_dissolution/other_divorce_and_dissolution_topics/annulment.html
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Khatru

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Re: The Lord's Prayer
« Reply #238 on: February 11, 2016, 08:47:19 PM »
Ha Ha there is many battles in a war and no one battle wins the war by itself.

How is the 9/11 different to the holocaust of 1939 -1945?
Can you imagine babies thrown in the air and caught on bayonets of guns. What evil did they commit?
Did you see anyone rush in to save them? Did the soldiers refuse to do it?
What I see as  truth is everyone who gave their lives even those fighting and brought the plane down before it hit it's target who were Christians went to Paradise... The ones who caused it are in Hell.

They were lost before they carried out their mission but the believers were already saved before they died.
I guess your bragging soon got snuffed out. God isn't daft nor the people of this board. Come here to brag among the imbeciles have you. We are the children of God, we love our neighbour we don't kill them.
The victory is Gods and those who died will live and never suffer again.

What about you? The atheists and others on this board join in the condemning of such actions as the 1939-45 holocaust and the 9/11. The good unites whilst the evil divides...
Whatever men do good men will unite in the face of evil. It won't give it any other name... 9/11 was sheer cowardice. Might as well have shot them in the back...

One  difference between us is that you can disagree with me and I won't think that you're going to be tortured for all eternity for doing so.

Another difference is that I condemn all acts of genocide.  Whether they were carried out by believers or non-believers.  That includes babies being bayoneted.  What about all the babies your invisible sky pixie has killed?  Do you condemn him for killing them?

By the way, seeing as you mentioned the Holocaust...

You do realise it was a Christian nation that was responsible for it?

Hitler, the Christian German clergy and the overwhelmingly Christian German people collectively embodied the failure of Christianity as a moral system - again.   Say what you want but there was nothing between all of those Jews and genocide except the ethics, the decency and compassion of a Christian nation, which, as it happened, turned out to be nothing at all.

« Last Edit: February 11, 2016, 08:49:35 PM by Khatru »
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Dorothy Parker

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Re: The Lord's Prayer
« Reply #239 on: February 11, 2016, 08:50:17 PM »
One  difference between us is that you can disagree with me and I won't think that you're going to be tortured for all eternity for doing so.

Another difference is that I condemn all acts of genocide.  Whether they were carried out by believers or non-believers.  That includes babies being bayoneted babies.  What about all the babies your invisible sky pixie has killed?  Do you condemn him for killing them?

By the way, seeing as you mentioned the Holocaust...

You do realise it was a Christian nation that was responsible for it?

Hitler, the Christian German clergy and the overwhelmingly Christian German people collectively embodied the failure of Christianity as a moral system - again.   Say what you want but there was nothing between all of those Jews and genocide except the ethics, the decency and compassion of a Christian nation, which, as it happened, turned out to be nothing at all.
Utter bollocks. It was a Nazi nation or had that slipped your mind.
I fear you are so oppositional you might have contemplated for a brief moment arguing Nazi Germany wasn't Nazi.

Shaker

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Re: The Lord's Prayer
« Reply #240 on: February 11, 2016, 09:19:34 PM »
Utter bollocks. It was a Nazi nation or had that slipped your mind.
The Nazis didn't seem to regard Nazism and Christianity as contradictory any more than the Crusaders and the Inqusitors saw wholesale torture and murder and Christianity as contradictory.
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Khatru

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Re: The Lord's Prayer
« Reply #241 on: February 11, 2016, 09:25:23 PM »
Utter bollocks. It was a Nazi nation or had that slipped your mind.
I fear you are so oppositional you might have contemplated for a brief moment arguing Nazi Germany wasn't Nazi.
.

So oppositional?  Ha ha - speak for yourself.   :)

Look at all the Christians supporting Donald Trump with his stance against the Muslims - that's how the Nazis got started.

The NT refers to Jews as dogs, snakes and a vipers brood who cannot escape being condemned to Hell. They're the people on whom God brought a "numbness of spirit" and gave them "blind eyes and deaf ears" 

The NT tells us that they're hypocrites and deaf to the truth. No less a person than Jesus told Jews who rejected him that their father was the devil and they chose to carry out their father's desires.

It probably suited the early Christians to blame the Jews to avoid upsetting the Romans. It would make it much easier to continue practising this new religion if they kept Rome sweet.

Then came the early church fathers:

Tertullian told us that Israel is never clean - its hands forever stained with blood.

Origen stated that the blood of the Jews falls not just on the Jews of that time but of all Jews up to the end of the world.

Saint Ephraeum Syrus called the Jews "circumcised dogs"

Saint Gregory of Nyssa said the Jews were slayers of the Lord, murderers of prophets, enemies and haters of God.

John Chrysostom wrote "Eight Homilies Against the Jews" which tell us about the despicable nature of Judaism and of the Jewish people who were driven to the ultimate evil. Christians are warned not to come into contact with Jews, a people who within them, demons dwell and their mothers ate their own babies. Chrysostom tells us that the Jews cause is lost and they can expect no atonement.

I'm hardly scratching the surface here and much more anti-Jewish invective existed. With such writings and sermons, it's little wonder that a hatred of Jews became indelibly stamped on the mindset of Christianity.

Fuelled by the anti-Semitism of their leaders, Christians attacked and destroyed synagogues. The earliest recorded Christian pogrom of the Jews was in 414 CE in Alexandria where the Jewish community was pretty much eradicated.

With such a strong anti-Jewish mindset it wasn't long before repressive laws were created.

The Synod of Elvira forbade Jewish men from having sex with Christian women. It didn't ban Christian men from having sex with Jewish women. Jews couldn't marry Christians or even share a meal with them.

A few years later at the Council of Nicea, Christian clergy were forbidden to hold conversations with Jews.

Then along came the Codex Theodosianus which laid down a slew of anti-Jewish laws. These pretty much turned the Jews' status into that of an underclass and they were banned from the administrative, military and legal professions. 

Further laws followed and the religious hatred of Christians toward Jews became state laws.

Hatred of the Jews was pretty trendy in the middle ages. Pope Innocent III used his influence by putting pressure on Christian rulers of other nations to remove Jews from public office.  Innocent added a preambles of his own to the papal manuscript "Sicut Judeis" in which he says that the Jews are not to be wiped out completely. In other words it's ok to partially wipe them out. Right.

On an on went the attacks on Jewishness. Further laws were passed and ghettos were set up for the Jews to live in. Life as a Jew in Christendom must have been pretty hellish.

Quite simply, Christians believe that Jews murdered Jesus,  It's no wonder that the Jews have been the subject of intolerance, hatred and murder since the early years of the Christian Church.  This led to anti-Semitism becoming an integral part of Christian doctrine.

The Church passed various laws and enactments which stripped away any rights that the Jews had. Christians accused the Jews of the most vile and evil crimes, leading to the insane idea of the "blood libel" - something so evil and twisted it could only have come from  the Christian Church.

Try looking up "Host Desecration" if you want a laugh at further Christian stupidity and ignorance.  We all know the cannibalistic side to those Christians who genuinely believed that the crackers they would eat transformed into the body of Jesus.  Such was the level of Christian insanity, they believed the Jews would want to torture these crackers in an attempt to hurt the body of Christ.

Both the Blood Libel and the Host Desecration led to the deaths of thousands of Jews.

Didn't the Catholic Church charge the entire Jewish people with deicide?  I'm sure that would have fired up even greater levels of hatred in those Christian heads.

No wonder Hitler targeted the Jews.  He was simply taking the hatred and murderous intolerance of the Christian Church to new levels of insanity.

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Re: The Lord's Prayer
« Reply #242 on: February 11, 2016, 09:43:38 PM »
.

So oppositional?  Ha ha - speak for yourself.   :)

Look at all the Christians supporting Donald Trump with his stance against the Muslims - that's how the Nazis got started.

The NT refers to Jews as dogs, snakes and a vipers brood who cannot escape being condemned to Hell. They're the people on whom God brought a "numbness of spirit" and gave them "blind eyes and deaf ears" 

The NT tells us that they're hypocrites and deaf to the truth. No less a person than Jesus told Jews who rejected him that their father was the devil and they chose to carry out their father's desires.

It probably suited the early Christians to blame the Jews to avoid upsetting the Romans. It would make it much easier to continue practising this new religion if they kept Rome sweet.

Then came the early church fathers:

Tertullian told us that Israel is never clean - its hands forever stained with blood.

Origen stated that the blood of the Jews falls not just on the Jews of that time but of all Jews up to the end of the world.

Saint Ephraeum Syrus called the Jews "circumcised dogs"

Saint Gregory of Nyssa said the Jews were slayers of the Lord, murderers of prophets, enemies and haters of God.

John Chrysostom wrote "Eight Homilies Against the Jews" which tell us about the despicable nature of Judaism and of the Jewish people who were driven to the ultimate evil. Christians are warned not to come into contact with Jews, a people who within them, demons dwell and their mothers ate their own babies. Chrysostom tells us that the Jews cause is lost and they can expect no atonement.

I'm hardly scratching the surface here and much more anti-Jewish invective existed. With such writings and sermons, it's little wonder that a hatred of Jews became indelibly stamped on the mindset of Christianity.

Fuelled by the anti-Semitism of their leaders, Christians attacked and destroyed synagogues. The earliest recorded Christian pogrom of the Jews was in 414 CE in Alexandria where the Jewish community was pretty much eradicated.

With such a strong anti-Jewish mindset it wasn't long before repressive laws were created.

The Synod of Elvira forbade Jewish men from having sex with Christian women. It didn't ban Christian men from having sex with Jewish women. Jews couldn't marry Christians or even share a meal with them.

A few years later at the Council of Nicea, Christian clergy were forbidden to hold conversations with Jews.

Then along came the Codex Theodosianus which laid down a slew of anti-Jewish laws. These pretty much turned the Jews' status into that of an underclass and they were banned from the administrative, military and legal professions.

Further laws followed and the religious hatred of Christians toward Jews became state laws.

Hatred of the Jews was pretty trendy in the middle ages. Pope Innocent III used his influence by putting pressure on Christian rulers of other nations to remove Jews from public office.  Innocent added a preambles of his own to the papal manuscript "Sicut Judeis" in which he says that the Jews are not to be wiped out completely. In other words it's ok to partially wipe them out. Right.

On an on went the attacks on Jewishness. Further laws were passed and ghettos were set up for the Jews to live in. Life as a Jew in Christendom must have been pretty hellish.

Quite simply, Christians believe that Jews murdered Jesus,  It's no wonder that the Jews have been the subject of intolerance, hatred and murder since the early years of the Christian Church.  This led to anti-Semitism becoming an integral part of Christian doctrine.

The Church passed various laws and enactments which stripped away any rights that the Jews had. Christians accused the Jews of the most vile and evil crimes, leading to the insane idea of the "blood libel" - something so evil and twisted it could only have come from  the Christian Church.

Try looking up "Host Desecration" if you want a laugh at further Christian stupidity and ignorance.  We all know the cannibalistic side to those Christians who genuinely believed that the crackers they would eat transformed into the body of Jesus.  Such was the level of Christian insanity, they believed the Jews would want to torture these crackers in an attempt to hurt the body of Christ.

Both the Blood Libel and the Host Desecration led to the deaths of thousands of Jews.

Didn't the Catholic Church charge the entire Jewish people with deicide?  I'm sure that would have fired up even greater levels of hatred in those Christian heads.

No wonder Hitler targeted the Jews.  He was simply taking the hatred and murderous intolerance of the Christian Church to new levels of insanity.
The Nazis were Galtonian eugenicists and worked Nietszchian ideas of the Ubermensch salted with German Paganism.

Sorry to piss on your Bonfire.

Khatru

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Re: The Lord's Prayer
« Reply #243 on: February 11, 2016, 10:04:47 PM »
The Nazis were Galtonian eugenicists and worked Nietszchian ideas of the Ubermensch salted with German Paganism.

Sorry to piss on your Bonfire.


Funny, I sometimes refer to Christianity as Judaism spiced with paganism.

Anyway, I'll take your failure to refute the rest of my post as your implicit agreement with what I said.   8)
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Dorothy Parker

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Re: The Lord's Prayer
« Reply #244 on: February 11, 2016, 10:16:50 PM »

Funny, I sometimes refer to Christianity as Judaism spiced with paganism.

Anyway, I'll take your failure to refute the rest of my post as your implicit agreement with what I said.   8)
I think folk Christians may have blamed the jews for the death of Jesus but most  Christians would have acknowledged that Jesus died for their own sins. Given that blaming Jews does not actually make a lot of Christian sense......and never did.


Khatru

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Re: The Lord's Prayer
« Reply #245 on: February 11, 2016, 10:30:01 PM »
I think folk Christians may have blamed the jews for the death of Jesus but most  Christians would have acknowledged that Jesus died for their own sins. Given that blaming Jews does not actually make a lot of Christian sense......and never did.

Agreed - it seems to run against the grain of what being a Christian is supposed to be about.
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Brownie

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Re: The Lord's Prayer
« Reply #246 on: February 11, 2016, 10:34:44 PM »
Ridiculous to blame "The Jews" for the death of Christ, who was a Jew as were the vast majority of his followers.  The Sanhedrin specifically get a bad press but it was the Romans who crucified Christ.
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OH MY WORLD!

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Re: The Lord's Prayer
« Reply #247 on: February 11, 2016, 10:55:05 PM »
Hello Matty,
I know you have missed me badly today.
Anyways about the word temptation. Now hundreds of years ago when my KJV was translated,  note the definitions of the word temptation. A monkey sitting on a rock can see that at the time my Bible was translated, one of the definitions for temptation was trial. So the fact is, at the time of my English translation, the English word shared the same definition as the Greek and Hebrew.

http://shakespeareswords.com/Glossary?let=t

ProfessorDavey

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Re: The Lord's Prayer
« Reply #248 on: February 12, 2016, 09:30:04 AM »
I never knew that.  Seems a bit harsh to me, a kick in the teeth for the infertile person.  You don't know until you try whether or not you are fertile.

Someone I know had her marriage annulled because it was not consummated.  They tried all sorts of treatment (I dread to think what that was like), but it wasn't possible.  A sister of a colleague of mine had her marriage annulled because her husband was unfaithful a couple of weeks after the marriage - I suppose it was obvious he didn't take his vows seriously.

I found this on the internet and it doesn't mention infertility:

https://www.gov.uk/how-to-annul-marriage/when-you-can-annul-a-marriage

and this, which says much the same:

http://findlaw.co.uk/law/family/divorce_and_dissolution/other_divorce_and_dissolution_topics/annulment.html
Rest assured that you cannot have your marriage legally annulled in the UK on the grounds of infertility.

The RCC have their own annulment rules, but this is nothing to do with legal marriage whatsoever - it is their own ruse to get around problems of divorcees wanting to re-marry.

So just as a marriage can only be created according to the law of the land is can only be dissolved, through divorce, or annulled according to the law of the land, and infertility is not grounds for annulment.

So if  someone fails to get a divorce (or legal annulment) yet the RCC decides to annul their marriage according to their rules, they remain married - the RCC annulment has no legal effect whatsoever.

Khatru

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Re: The Lord's Prayer
« Reply #249 on: February 12, 2016, 11:06:38 AM »
Rest assured that you cannot have your marriage legally annulled in the UK on the grounds of infertility.

The RCC have their own annulment rules, but this is nothing to do with legal marriage whatsoever - it is their own ruse to get around problems of divorcees wanting to re-marry.

So just as a marriage can only be created according to the law of the land is can only be dissolved, through divorce, or annulled according to the law of the land, and infertility is not grounds for annulment.

So if  someone fails to get a divorce (or legal annulment) yet the RCC decides to annul their marriage according to their rules, they remain married - the RCC annulment has no legal effect whatsoever.

Let's hear it for the overarching law of the land!

Huzzah!
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