Condemn or Approve?

[ad_orientem]

Perhaps he has a job where his superiors don't check up on his computer actiivity floo.  Or he could do shift work and cannot sleep during the day.  Edit:  I see ad-o has replied to you while I was typing this so now we know.

ad-o, try and work out why the threads you started were derailed - do you lay down the law, are you inflexible, self-righteous, condemnatory?   Plenty of posters disagree with eachother's pov but remain civil, cordial even.

http://www.religionethics.co.uk/index.php?topic=11076.0

[Sassy]

It's a simple enough question but it seems to cause you problems.

What is it with believers and their reluctance to answer questions?

Unlike the believers, I think most unbelievers will always try to answer a question posed by another person, regardless of the question, or indeed, who is posing it.

Will we always answer it to complete satisfaction?

The god of the Bible carries out The god of the Bible carries out acts of genocide and approves of killing homosexuals,
people who have sex outside of marriage as well as people who practice freedom of
 religion



Do you condemn the Bible god's  actions?

Do you approve of the Bible god's actions?

I have a question for you and other unbelievers....

Who carried the acts of genocide and approves of killing homosexuals,
people who have sex outside of marriage as well as people who practice freedom of
 religion?

My problem is that the bible tells us why God acts. But if as atheists you believe there is no god then who really carried out these actions? More importantly why did human beings carry these things out.

You see in Sodom and Gomorrah those committing acts of homosexuality were literally running their town in fear.

19 And there came two angels to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground;

2 And he said, Behold now, my lords, turn in, I pray you, into your servant's house, and tarry all night, and wash your feet, and ye shall rise up early, and go on your ways. And they said, Nay; but we will abide in the street all night.

3 And he pressed upon them greatly; and they turned in unto him, and entered into his house; and he made them a feast, and did bake unleavened bread, and they did eat.

4 But before they lay down, the men of the city, even the men of Sodom, compassed the house round, both old and young, all the people from every quarter:

5 And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.

6 And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him,

7 And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly.

Would you risk such things happening again?

Lot was a religious man and he tried to protect those men who were angels.
How come the atheists the godless did not want to protect them?
It would appear the homosexuals here were evil men and wanted to rape strangers.
Did Lot do right or should he have left them to the hands of those who would harm them.
And you, you and other men like you, would you have wanted what was meant for those men/angels to happen to you?
How many innocent people had already died?

God rescues the innocent the family of Abraham and allows those who did and allowed these things to happen to Perish.
If you were trained in the art of killing and you were about to be ganged raped would you kill or be raped?

When it comes to genocide...

The Jews between 1939 and 1945 were slaughtered.

In Egypt King James Bible

And Pharaoh charged all his people, saying, Every son that is born ye shall cast into the river, and every daughter ye shall save alive.

Genocide is a fact of history for many reasons. Man committing his own evil.

The trouble with a poll by an atheist/pagan or even a different religion cannot ever blame God for something man has done naturally by his own nature since time and memorial.

You see Gods actions are based on saving all in the long run.
But if men are responsible without God then you have to count yourself in those words.

The Human beings  of the Bible and world carries out acts of genocide and approves of killing homosexuals,
people who have sex outside of marriage as well as people who practice freedom of
 religion

You want to blame anyone then your lack of religion means you can only blame your own kind.
Really silly to have your soul cast into hell for complaining about your own evil.. Laughable even for using it as reason not to believe and condemn God. Jesus Christ shows that God want people to live, without suffering and without evil.
You lose!

[floo]

Sass all that is a fairy tale, it isn't credible! 

[Shaker]

Great post Ad O. Soon this thread will be a shining example.

An example of his shining wit. Excuse the Spoonerism.

[Brownie]

Sass all that is a fairy tale, it isn't credible! 

Some of what she says is common sense, we would try to protect ourselves in any way we could if we were in a violent situation, it's natural.  Lot was protecting strangers - or if you don't believe Lot actually existed, the story of Lot is about protecting strangers from hostile people. The potential violence that was the point, could have manifested itself in any way  Rape is particularly violent.

I'm not sure about Khatru condemning himself to Hell, that's a bit strong for me.  There's always hope and on a forum like this, everything has to be challenged.  We should welcome it, it makes us think.  Sassy will probably disagree with me on that one but that's OK, we don't have to agree on everything.

I very much liked Sassy's post on the Part 2 thread.

[Hope]

We really don't need to be told about the prevailing social economics/culture/morality of the day.

You clearly need to be, since you seem to be ignoring the fact that nomadic and settled life place very different pressures on society and require different types of punishment to be meted out to those who fail to follow the prevailing social codes.

The fact is that you refuse to condemn the murderous acts carried out by the Bible god which is why you appear to favour the following:

Slavery
Genocide
Incest
Killing homosexuals
Killing people who have sex outside of marriage
Killing people who opt for freedom of religion
Killing brides who aren't virgins on their wedding night (and the men who caused the situation the women find themselves in)
Killing your children if they curse or strike you
Killing people who blaspheme against your god
Killing people who work on a Saturday

Of course, you only favour the items in the above list when you believe them to be divinely endorsed.  Otherwise you'd be the first to condemn.  Right?

The problem with this suggestion is that it is flawed in at least 3 ways: firstly, you are extremely selective in your choice of what you accuse me and others of 'appearing to be in favour of'; the God you are referring to outlines a whole host of actions that the Jewish people had to follow/adhere to - which include the actions I've listed in my parallel thread and which you seem not to approve of.  I appreciate that you can't afford to refer to such things as they contradict your chosen position (the term hypocricy comes to mind): secondly, you over-generalise things that you want to dislike - for instance, there is no instruction to "Kill people who blaspheme against your god" - if, instead of 'people' you'd used 'Jew' you'd have been closer to reality (after all, the Old Testament is the 'law-book' for the Jewish people - not for the Babylonians or the Canaanites): thirdly, you have concentrated on the Old Testament laws.  As a Christian living in Britain, I'm no more answerable to the Jewish legal system, than I'm answerable to the Russian system.

[Hope]

Sass all that is a fairy tale, it isn't credible! 

Sorry, Floo; if as Sass points out, there is no god - as you like to suggest is the case - it has to be humanity who is responsible for the actions that Khat wants us to consider. 

[Hope]

...or if you don't believe Lot actually existed, the story of Lot is about protecting strangers from hostile people.

It should probably be noted that modern biblical scholarship regards the Sodom and Gomorrah incident as one of breaking the traditional belief that hospitality shoud be extended to strangers.  I'm sure that most here would agree that seeking to abuse strangers sexually isn't all that hospitable.

[Brownie]

I agree, I thought I said that in a roundabout way actually, maybe I wasn't clear.  The would-be rapists were breaking the tradition which Lot was trying to uphold.

[Alan Burns]

I would love to counter the dreadful summary in the OP of this thread by recalling just how and why Christianity began.

 Jesus said that the Kingdom of God is like a mustard seed, “the smallest of all the seeds on the earth. But once it is sown, it springs up and becomes the largest of plants…so that the birds of the sky can dwell in its shade” (Matthew 13:31).

The first Christians understood Jesus to be speaking of his Church, the mystical body that began in the smallest way, but has come in time to be home to the nations of the world. The mustard seed of the Church began with a thirty-year-old man, dying on an instrument of torture, his disciples having fled, and his enemies mocking him. But it grew into the Body of Christ composed of billions of people in every country on the planet, and many more in heaven.

So the ultimate question from the message of the bible should be:
Do you believe Jesus died for you?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Simple! Ignore him, and he would get bored and leave us to it.

So if he was shown to exist you would ignore him.

I think that anybody with a bit of scientific curiosity couldn't.....oh I was forgetting that at your recent recantation of free will in front of Nearly Sane and Hillside (The inquisition) you said you didn't really do science.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Simple! Ignore him, and he would get bored and leave us to it.

Oh so he isn't the tyrant you said he was a couple of days ago.................................that's really consistent of you Ha Ha.

[Enki]

I have a question for you and other unbelievers....

Who carried the acts of genocide and approves of killing homosexuals,
people who have sex outside of marriage as well as people who practice freedom of
 religion?

My problem is that the bible tells us why God acts. But if as atheists you believe there is no god then who really carried out these actions? More importantly why did human beings carry these things out.

You see in Sodom and Gomorrah those committing acts of homosexuality were literally running their town in fear.
Would you risk such things happening again?

Lot was a religious man and he tried to protect those men who were angels.
How come the atheists the godless did not want to protect them?
It would appear the homosexuals here were evil men and wanted to rape strangers.
Did Lot do right or should he have left them to the hands of those who would harm them.
And you, you and other men like you, would you have wanted what was meant for those men/angels to happen to you?
How many innocent people had already died?

God rescues the innocent the family of Abraham and allows those who did and allowed these things to happen to Perish.
If you were trained in the art of killing and you were about to be ganged raped would you kill or be raped?

When it comes to genocide...

The Jews between 1939 and 1945 were slaughtered.

In Egypt King James BibleGenocide is a fact of history for many reasons. Man committing his own evil.

The trouble with a poll by an atheist/pagan or even a different religion cannot ever blame God for something man has done naturally by his own nature since time and memorial.

You see Gods actions are based on saving all in the long run.
But if men are responsible without God then you have to count yourself in those words.

You want to blame anyone then your lack of religion means you can only blame your own kind.
Really silly to have your soul cast into hell for complaining about your own evil.. Laughable even for using it as reason not to believe and condemn God. Jesus Christ shows that God want people to live, without suffering and without evil.
You lose!

All the acts you seem to be referring to were and are carried out by human beings, I would have thought that was obvious. Usually such acts were carried out because of strong intolerances towards people who were considered 'different' or didn't conform in some way, according to the prevalent ideologies of those who were either in control or who had the necessary clout to impose their views upon others.

I would not want to be any part of any such intolerant and rigid ideology. Unfortunately belief in such ideolologies has at times equally included those of a religious nature as well as those who are not.

Your last paragraph really has little meaning for me, because my non belief in any god is not founded upon any such ideas, but upon what I see as the total lack of evidence that any god exists. Hence the idea that I condemn some actual God is ridiculous, because I have no reason to believe that He exists. What would be the point of condemning something that means nothing to me?

I do, however, reserve the right to challenge and condemn those who show bigotry and intolerance especially when it leads to harm towards others, and that also might well include those of a religious persuasion. Why even your New Testament at times doesn't seem averse to intolerance:

E.G. 2 Thessalonians Ch 1 V6-9.

 

[Leonard James]

Oh so he isn't the tyrant you said he was a couple of days ago.................................that's really consistent of you Ha Ha.

He doesn't exist, but if he did he would be an evil tyrant if the Bible stories about him were true.

It's all a load of bullshit, and fools only the gullible.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

He doesn't exist, but if he did he would be an evil tyrant if the Bible stories about him were true.

It's all a load of bullshit, and fools only the gullible.

But you say that if you ignored him he would go away, How can he be a tyrant and something you can ignore?

[Leonard James]

But you say that if you ignored him he would go away, How can he be a tyrant and something you can ignore?

I was speaking to the gullible people who believe he DOES exist ... like you!

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I was speaking to the gullible people who believe he DOES exist ... like you!

Interesting, so are you saying that if he did exist he would necessarily be a tyrant.....and the reason you ignore him is that he doesn't exist?

Couldn't he exist and let you ignore him?

At the moment you seem to be saying that he doesn't exist because you are ignoring him.

[Khatru]

I have a question for you and other unbelievers....

Who carried the acts of genocide and approves of killing homosexuals,
people who have sex outside of marriage as well as people who practice freedom of
 religion?

My problem is that the bible tells us why God acts. But if as atheists you believe there is no god then who really carried out these actions? More importantly why did human beings carry these things out.

You see in Sodom and Gomorrah those committing acts of homosexuality were literally running their town in fear.
Would you risk such things happening again?

Lot was a religious man and he tried to protect those men who were angels.
How come the atheists the godless did not want to protect them?
It would appear the homosexuals here were evil men and wanted to rape strangers.
Did Lot do right or should he have left them to the hands of those who would harm them.
And you, you and other men like you, would you have wanted what was meant for those men/angels to happen to you?
How many innocent people had already died?

God rescues the innocent the family of Abraham and allows those who did and allowed these things to happen to Perish.
If you were trained in the art of killing and you were about to be ganged raped would you kill or be raped?

When it comes to genocide...

The Jews between 1939 and 1945 were slaughtered.

In Egypt King James BibleGenocide is a fact of history for many reasons. Man committing his own evil.

The trouble with a poll by an atheist/pagan or even a different religion cannot ever blame God for something man has done naturally by his own nature since time and memorial.

You see Gods actions are based on saving all in the long run.
But if men are responsible without God then you have to count yourself in those words.

You want to blame anyone then your lack of religion means you can only blame your own kind.
Really silly to have your soul cast into hell for complaining about your own evil.. Laughable even for using it as reason not to believe and condemn God. Jesus Christ shows that God want people to live, without suffering and without evil.
You lose!

You're missing the point.   How can I blame something which I don't believe exists?

What I said is that your belief system has you defending genocide (amongst other things).  I was right.

Of course I blame my own kind for the acts of genocide that have taken place throughout history.  Who else is there to blame?  An invisible sky pixie?  Wait a minute....

Your post is a shining example of the divisive nature of Christianity.  How does your mantra go?  "You're either with us or you're damned"?  Something like that.

Your god's actions are based on "saving all in the long run"?

Saving all from what?

From poverty?  From tyranny?

You also mention the Jews and their slaughter at the hands of a Christian nation.

Remember Anne Frank?  I'm sure you do - she was Jewish and she wrote a famous diary.
 
The innocence and hope in her diary is an inspiration and despite all that she went through.  She wrote lines like:

"In spite of everything I still believe that people are truly good at heart"

"Everyone has inside of him a piece of good news. The good news is that you don't know how great you can be! How much you can love! What you can accomplish! And what your potential is!"

"How wonderful it is that nobody need wait a single moment before beginning to improve the world."

She died at the age of fifteen in a death camp ran by a nation that was populated by an overwhelming Christian majority. 

What was her crime?  Like millions of believers the world over, she was born into and adopted the faith of her parents and culture and for that she had to die and that's that.

Well, actually, no, that's not that. 

Why?

Because according to your belief system, Anne Frank is now in hell alongside Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, etc.  Anne never accepted Jesus and for that she must be tortured for all eternity.

And you say I'm evil

[Walt Zingmatilder]

You're missing the point.   How can I blame something which I don't believe exists?

What I said is that your belief system has you defending genocide (amongst other things).  I was right.

Of course I blame my own kind for the acts of genocide that have taken place throughout history.  Who else is there to blame?  An invisible sky pixie?  Wait a minute....

Your post is a shining example of the divisive nature of Christianity.  How does your mantra go?  "You're either with us or you're damned"?  Something like that.

Your god's actions are based on "saving all in the long run"?

Saving all from what?

From poverty?  From tyranny?

You also mention the Jews and their slaughter at the hands of a Christian nation.

Remember Anne Frank?  I'm sure you do - she was Jewish and she wrote a famous diary.
 
The innocence and hope in her diary is an inspiration and despite all that she went through.  She wrote lines like:

"In spite of everything I still believe that people are truly good at heart"

"Everyone has inside of him a piece of good news. The good news is that you don't know how great you can be! How much you can love! What you can accomplish! And what your potential is!"

"How wonderful it is that nobody need wait a single moment before beginning to improve the world."

She died at the age of fifteen in a death camp ran by a nation that was populated by an overwhelming Christian majority. 

What was her crime?  Like millions of believers the world over, she was born into and adopted the faith of her parents and culture and for that she had to die and that's that.

Well, actually, no, that's not that. 

Why?

Because according to your belief system, Anne Frank is now in hell alongside Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, etc.  Anne never accepted Jesus and for that she must be tortured for all eternity.

And you say I'm evil

I don't......Your probably not completely potty either.......just pottesque.

[Shaker]

For crying out loud, can you not simply put "Post # whatever" and then your comment instead of copying the entire bloody thing only to tack a few words on the end?

[Khatru]

You clearly need to be, since you seem to be ignoring the fact that nomadic and settled life place very different pressures on society and require different types of punishment to be meted out to those who fail to follow the prevailing social codes.
The problem with this suggestion is that it is flawed in at least 3 ways: firstly, you are extremely selective in your choice of what you accuse me and others of 'appearing to be in favour of'; the God you are referring to outlines a whole host of actions that the Jewish people had to follow/adhere to - which include the actions I've listed in my parallel thread and which you seem not to approve of.  I appreciate that you can't afford to refer to such things as they contradict your chosen position (the term hypocricy comes to mind): secondly, you over-generalise things that you want to dislike - for instance, there is no instruction to "Kill people who blaspheme against your god" - if, instead of 'people' you'd used 'Jew' you'd have been closer to reality (after all, the Old Testament is the 'law-book' for the Jewish people - not for the Babylonians or the Canaanites): thirdly, you have concentrated on the Old Testament laws.  As a Christian living in Britain, I'm no more answerable to the Jewish legal system, than I'm answerable to the Russian system.

Nomadic and settled life and associated social/cultures are different?  Yes, they certainly are.

In any event, I'd say that ultimately it boils down to race/ethnicity. What with the constant claims that the Jews are the Bible god's chosen people, it's as if the Bible has its own Jim Crow Laws. Does the god of the Bible tell his people to live in peace and harmony with other ethnic groups? Nope, instead he instructs them to show no mercy and kill, smite and utterly destroy. "Thou shalt make no covenant with them nor show mercy unto them. Neither shalt thou make marriages with them." There's nothing that's remotely good about this and it certainly exceeds the worst excesses of anything the KKK ever did.

I fully accept I've been selective with my original post.  Then, that's just what Christians do when they cherry-pick pieces of scripture to beat us non-believers about the head with. 

Yes, the Bible does tell us that it's death to blasphemers:

"And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying ... he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him."

Leviticus 24:13-16

I have focused on the OT but then again, so do many Christians when it suits them.  Yet if all this divine murder and mayhem is so abhorrent to you, why not tear out those pages from your Bible?

A holy book with instructions to kill people isn't much cop.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Shaker,

For crying out loud,

Don't you mean, oh for Gods sake!!

But I think Vlad was right to quote the whole post, it was a good post, filled with good old fashioned atheist angst, I liked the post and I think Vlad enjoyed it to.

Dear Khatru,

Good post.

"Everyone has inside of him a piece of good news. The good news is that you don't know how great you can be! How much you can love! What you can accomplish! And what your potential is!"

Gonnagle.

[Khatru]

I don't......Your probably not completely potty either.......just pottesque.

It helps!

However, I draw a line at talking snakes and donkeys.   

[Walt Zingmatilder]

It helps!

However, I draw a line at talking snakes and donkeys.   

Why stop at berating them too?..............

[Khatru]

Dear Shaker,

Don't you mean, oh for Gods sake!!

But I think Vlad was right to quote the whole post, it was a good post, filled with good old fashioned atheist angst, I liked the post and I think Vlad enjoyed it to.

Dear Khatru,

Good post.

Gonnagle.

Thanks!