The End of the NHS?

[jakswan]

My take on the issue is that we are happily allowing people to live longer and longer, suffering from ever more serious, and therefore expensive health conditions, and the Health Service is being transformed from within compared to what it was originally set up as.

Everyone who has ever lived, has or will, have a fatal disease or injury, this is not going to change, its not 'more serious'. Did you mean more complex?

If so I agree, the reality is that we need to spend more and it needs to be more efficient. Also it needs to be depolitisised, currently its used as a political football by too many. The primitive childish tribalism in this thread is evidence of that.

[jakswan]

PRIVATISATION

That is what it is all about. Making those who can pay and those who can't afford medical insurance will go without.
They think we cannot see it. Some are so fogged up with the cost of health blaming the paying insurance public and not the bad management by the government.

The truth is in closing the first hospital A&E of the first NHS hospital then shutting it down permanently they think they get rid
of the health care for all. Then then introduce the insurance scam like USA. The benefits system already reflected.
The truth is that God will allow them to go far with oppressing the poor then there will be the Almighty crash when it falls down around their ears. The first action was to stop the working class in the pubs where believe it or not a lot of politics amongst working class were thrashed out.  Now they want to make Britain about forking out for medical insurance to receive treatment and make it so families have to live on the street without any help. They removed the blanket if hope and support.

They have put financial hardship on the poor. Tossed out mentally ill people on the street and so closed down the way forward to look after them. BUT  God will only allow it to go far before he quoshes it...  GB is island is does not have over 50 states.
We are better equipped to bring our government down and it's oppression against the poor.
God helps those who caused it...

Sometimes I realise why our so many of our politicians suck when we people like this in the electorate.

[L.A.]

If we are to believe the news reports, all the safety issues have been resolved in the negotiations and the only stumbling block is the question of payments for Saturday working. Basically the junior doctors felt that 12% was not enough to compensate them for the  loss of payments for weekend working.

In other words, the union can no longer claim that the issue is patient safety, it is just about cash for their members. Any public good-will towards the doctors is likely to run rather thin if they cause any more disruption.

[Sassy]

Hi Sass,

as long as there is a commitment for NHS treatment free at the point of delivery why would it matter who does the treatment as long as they are competent?

I might be having an operation in the near future and I couldn't give a damn whether a private company is involved or not. My greater concern is striking *doctors!

*Rude words omitted as they might need to be censored.

No free treatment that was my point...

[L.A.]

No free treatment that was my point...

As far as I'm aware, there are no proposals for NHS treatment fees.

[Sassy]

As far as I'm aware, there are no proposals for NHS treatment fees.

Wait till there isn't an NHS and all have to pay. It is on it's way will be too late when it happens to change.
No one listens...

Look at the benefit system that has had the blanket for protection removed.
They can leave people without food, money and accommodation. Even with young children walking the street. The same in America. So what makes you think they won't leave them without medical attention. They have deliberately shut down hospitals in poorer areas so they die before they can reach medical attention. These triage nurses and medical centres are no different from those used in America for years. Shut your eyes like everyone else. Then open them when it has happened.

[L.A.]

Wait till there isn't an NHS and all have to pay. It is on it's way will be too late when it happens to change.
No one listens...

Look at the benefit system that has had the blanket for protection removed.
They can leave people without food, money and accommodation. Even with young children walking the street. The same in America. So what makes you think they won't leave them without medical attention. They have deliberately shut down hospitals in poorer areas so they die before they can reach medical attention. These triage nurses and medical centres are no different from those used in America for years. Shut your eyes like everyone else. Then open them when it has happened.

Personally, I think that the greatest threat to the NHS is that costs could spiral out of control to a point where it is totally unsustainable, and if that happened it really would be the end of the NHS as we know it.

[Jack Knave]

Hi Sass,

as long as there is a commitment for NHS treatment free at the point of delivery why would it matter who does the treatment as long as they are competent?

I might be having an operation in the near future and I couldn't give a damn whether a private company is involved or not. My greater concern is striking *doctors!

*Rude words omitted as they might need to be censored.

A big IF in there. And that's the thing there is no guarantees of this free at the point of delivery in the long run....and as for competency, companies are about making profits not providing good health cover and so it will decline over time; and then there will be 2nd class and 3rd class services and then those who can't afford the premiums and so left off the radar. Not in our time but will be for generations to come.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

A big IF in there. And that's the thing there is no guarantees of this free at the point of delivery in the long run....and as for competency, companies are about making profits not providing good health cover and so it will decline over time; and then there will be 2nd class and 3rd class services and then those who can't afford the premiums and so left off the radar. Not in our time but will be for generations to come.

Couldn't agree more.

For anyone still advocating privatisation of the NHS the facts are simple.

Give the NHS a pound to spend and that's a pound spent on the NHS.

Give a company a pound to spend on Health care and some of that has to be kept as profit.

It's a no brainer.

[Aruntraveller]

http://www.economist.com/blogs/economist-explains/2014/06/economist-explains-16

For info. worth a read for anybody who thinks our health system isn't cost effective.

[Sassy]

Personally, I think that the greatest threat to the NHS is that costs could spiral out of control to a point where it is totally unsustainable, and if that happened it really would be the end of the NHS as we know it.

COSTS... well isn't that why so many immigrants are being allowed in? The very excuse to say the NHS is overwhelmed.
Then what happens? Do you not think the Government gets enough of the persons hard earned pound.

Add it up. Income tax at source of earnings. Tax on food and everything that you purchase. How much does the Government get of every pound you earn.

[jakswan]

Couldn't agree more.

For anyone still advocating privatisation of the NHS the facts are simple.

Give the NHS a pound to spend and that's a pound spent on the NHS.

Give a company a pound to spend on Health care and some of that has to be kept as profit.

It's a no brainer.

Who is advocating privatising the NHS?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Who is advocating privatising the NHS?

Like everything else services are contracted out.

[Hope]

Like everything else services are contracted out.

A process that was strongly encouraged by Blair's Tory Party - oh, sorry, Blair was Labour, wasn't he   

[Shaker]

A process that was strongly encouraged by Blair's Tory Party - oh, sorry, Blair was Labour, wasn't he   

No - he masqueraded as Labour. You were right the first time.

[jakswan]

Like everything else services are contracted out.

So you want nationalise GPs, opticians, dentists, some cleaners?

I'd prefer to have the free at point of use service provided by the most efficient method and base that decision on evidence.

[Hope]

No - he masqueraded as Labour. You were right the first time.

Don't tell him and the rest of the electorate who supported him by voting Labour, that     Mind you, I think that Cameron could be regarded as doing the equivalent, in the way that he has taken up many traditionally Labour social stances.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

So you want nationalise GPs, opticians, dentists, some cleaners?

I'd prefer to have the free at point of use service provided by the most efficient method and base that decision on evidence.

Jak
Explain to me how giving a public sector person a pound to spend on the NHS is less efficient than first taking some of that pound to find someone to spend what's left and when that someone is found they have to take some out for a bit of profit.

[Shaker]

Don't tell him and the rest of the electorate who supported him by voting Labour, that   

Pretty sure he knows and knew long ago.

[L.A.]

A big IF in there. And that's the thing there is no guarantees of this free at the point of delivery in the long run....and as for competency, companies are about making profits not providing good health cover and so it will decline over time; and then there will be 2nd class and 3rd class services and then those who can't afford the premiums and so left off the radar. Not in our time but will be for generations to come.

I would say that the first government to suggest ending treatment free at the point of delivery would face massive opposition from across the political spectrum.

Private companies are quite capable of delivering all kinds of services at good value and still make a profit. There is absolutely no reason why private companies should be excluded from NHS work on dogmatic grounds. Obviously some companies are better than others and contracts need careful management, but there is also exceedingly bad practice within the NHS itself that needs 'weeding out'.

A few years ago a friend of mine did some part-time work at the local hospital to top-up his pension. Having run his own company in the past he was appalled by what he saw. Operations were being cancelled because no one had autoclaved the instruments or cleaned the theatres properly!

[jakswan]

Jak
Explain to me how giving a public sector person a pound to spend on the NHS is less efficient than first taking some of that pound to find someone to spend what's left and when that someone is found they have to take some out for a bit of profit.

Efficiency,  my sister works for the NHS and some parts of it are grossly inefficient due to it being run by the government.

Could you answer my question please.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I would say that the first government to suggest ending treatment free at the point of delivery would face massive opposition from across the political spectrum.

Private companies are quite capable of delivering all kinds of services at good value and still make a profit. There is absolutely no reason why private companies should be excluded from NHS work on dogmatic grounds. Obviously some companies are better than others and contracts need careful management, but there is also exceedingly bad practice within the NHS itself that needs 'weeding out'.

A few years ago a friend of mine did some part-time work at the local hospital to top-up his pension. Having run his own company in the past he was appalled by what he saw. Operations were being cancelled because no one had autoclaved the instruments or cleaned the theatres properly!

But hang on contracting out of services requires careful management of those who will then have to carefully. How can two tiers of careful management be more efficient than one?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I would say that the first government to suggest ending treatment free at the point of delivery would face massive opposition from across the political spectrum.

Private companies are quite capable of delivering all kinds of services at good value and still make a profit. There is absolutely no reason why private companies should be excluded from NHS work on dogmatic grounds. Obviously some companies are better than others and contracts need careful management, but there is also exceedingly bad practice within the NHS itself that needs 'weeding out'.

A few years ago a friend of mine did some part-time work at the local hospital to top-up his pension. Having run his own company in the past he was appalled by what he saw. Operations were being cancelled because no one had autoclaved the instruments or cleaned the theatres properly!

Let's look at education...the model for everything these days.
Overriding everything at the moment is the fact that there is a teacher shortage in a sector which has little or no incentive for people to come into it. A quarter of those trained do not stay in the profession for more than a few years. It is a sector where experience does not count due to government regularly ripping up the rule book and making it very easy to get rid of Old dogs who can't or refuse to learn new tricks.

Worse is internal competition between LEA and academy chains and between academy chains, a post code lottery in education and after 25 years of a sacred inspection system failure is still or more rife than in 1990.

Academy chains are becoming more like local authorities but without the ability for joined up planning with other services making a mockery of local management.

The big problem is that it has the worst of all worlds.

The unneccesity of contracting out.

Public servants giving out money to private contractors.

Your dilemma is this. If public servants cannot doctrinally be trusted to manage services why can they be trusted to contract them out?

It seems to me that private health had it's shout last century up to 1945 and never made a very good fist of it. Why should it work now?

[jakswan]

But hang on contracting out of services requires careful management of those who will then have to carefully. How can two tiers of careful management be more efficient than one?

Hello can you answer my question please?

So you want nationalise GPs, opticians, dentists, some cleaners?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Hello can you answer my question please?

So you want nationalise GPs, opticians, dentists, some cleaners?

I think in times of austerity standardisation and nationalisation as you refer to it make more sense.