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Author Topic: "What we've got here is failure to communicate..."  (Read 38376 times)

Shaker

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Re: "What we've got here is failure to communicate..."
« Reply #25 on: February 13, 2016, 05:43:40 PM »
Quote from: Hope on February 13, 2016, 05:01:38 PM
Well, there are things like Bibles and churches, pastors and scholars.  Then there is pray and other Christians.
So, in short, things that look exactly and precisely like the work of other human beings with no actual gods involved.
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Leonard James

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Re: "What we've got here is failure to communicate..."
« Reply #26 on: February 13, 2016, 05:44:59 PM »
Quote from: Shaker on February 13, 2016, 05:43:40 PM
So, in short, things that look exactly and precisely like the work of other human beings with no actual gods involved.

Bull's eye!
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Shaker

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Re: "What we've got here is failure to communicate..."
« Reply #27 on: February 13, 2016, 05:45:05 PM »
Quote from: Hope on February 13, 2016, 05:43:01 PM
When atheists are able to keep their atheism in their homes and meeting places like this, we'll keep our religion in the places you mention, Khatru.
You really think you lot will be able to do that, will you?

I thought it was your group whose book said that you have a great commission to go out and tell all the world about your beliefs with the intention of converting them to your way of thinking?
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Hope

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Re: "What we've got here is failure to communicate..."
« Reply #28 on: February 13, 2016, 05:49:12 PM »
Quote from: Floo on February 13, 2016, 05:24:44 PM
If the deity exists it should communicate directly, NOT using the middle man who makes up their own thoughts about what the deity is supposed to be saying! ::)
Floo, if I read a book, I take lessons and ideas from it that are different to what you would take out of it.  We've both had different experiences so have different issues to deal with.  As for communicating directly, how would you expect a deity to this?
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Shaker

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Re: "What we've got here is failure to communicate..."
« Reply #29 on: February 13, 2016, 05:50:39 PM »
Quote from: Hope on February 13, 2016, 05:49:12 PM
Floo, if I read a book, I take lessons and ideas from it that are different to what you would take out of it.  We've both had different experiences so have different issues to deal with.  As for communicating directly, how would you expect a deity to this?
Wouldn't an omnipotent deity know?
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Hope

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Re: "What we've got here is failure to communicate..."
« Reply #30 on: February 13, 2016, 05:51:35 PM »
Quote from: Shaker on February 13, 2016, 05:45:05 PM
You really think you lot will be able to do that, will you?
Shakes, since I can't see you and yours keeping your 'religion' within your homes and out of places like this, I'm not expecting to have to do what I suggested.
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Shaker

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Re: "What we've got here is failure to communicate..."
« Reply #31 on: February 13, 2016, 05:52:20 PM »
Quote from: Hope on February 13, 2016, 05:51:35 PM
Shakes, since I can't see you and yours keeping your 'religion' within your homes and out of places like this, I'm not expecting to have to do what I suggested.
I don't have a religion, either with or without quotation marks.
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Hope

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Re: "What we've got here is failure to communicate..."
« Reply #32 on: February 13, 2016, 05:55:05 PM »
Quote from: Shaker on February 13, 2016, 05:50:39 PM
Wouldn't an omnipotent deity know?
And how does that relate to the post you quoted?  I asked Floo to tell us how she would expect to be communicated with.  Last time she tried this track, she listed a number of ways which, iirc, Anchorman, pointed out to her that God already uses.
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Shaker

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Re: "What we've got here is failure to communicate..."
« Reply #33 on: February 13, 2016, 05:55:44 PM »
Quote from: Hope on February 13, 2016, 05:55:05 PM
And how does that relate to the post you quoted? I asked Floo to tell us how she would expect to be communicated with.
Because while a fallible human being working always with limited information couldn't be expected to know, an omnimax god of the traditional sort definitely would.

Quote
Last time she tried this track, she listed a number of ways which, iirc, Anchorman, pointed out to her that God already uses.
... in Anchorman's opinion, since that's merely a belief.
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Hope

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Re: "What we've got here is failure to communicate..."
« Reply #34 on: February 13, 2016, 05:56:29 PM »
Quote from: Shaker on February 13, 2016, 05:52:20 PM
I don't have a religion, either with or without quotation marks.
Sorry to disappoint you Shakes, but you follow a particular understanding of life - so you have a religion.  You just prefer not to admit it.
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Shaker

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Re: "What we've got here is failure to communicate..."
« Reply #35 on: February 13, 2016, 05:59:05 PM »
Quote from: Hope on February 13, 2016, 05:56:29 PM
Sorry to disappoint you Shakes, but you follow a particular understanding of life - so you have a religion.
So you've just defined "following a particular understanding of life" as a religion, or rather, vice versa. On that view, a political allegiance is a religion. Is this the sort of violence that you really want to do to the English language? Do the fine people at the OED know about this?
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You just prefer not to admit it.
I make a point of not admitting things that are not true.
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Khatru

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Re: "What we've got here is failure to communicate..."
« Reply #36 on: February 13, 2016, 06:01:52 PM »
Quote from: Floo on February 13, 2016, 05:24:44 PM
If the deity exists it should communicate directly, NOT using the middle man who makes up their own thoughts about what the deity is supposed to be saying! ::)

Absolutely.  A good communicator would talk to us regularly and lead by example.  Instead humanity is left in the hands of Satan while the Bible god promises to return at some random future time, wreak havoc in earth and judge its people with fire.
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Khatru

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Re: "What we've got here is failure to communicate..."
« Reply #37 on: February 13, 2016, 06:04:18 PM »
Quote from: Hope on February 13, 2016, 05:01:38 PM
Well, there are things like Bibles and churches, pastors and scholars.  Then there is pray and other Christians.  Or are you suggesting that the only way anyone - deity or otherwise - can communicate in person is by accompanying each human being 24/7?

Why not? 

We're told that thenBible god is omnipotent.  It would be easier for him to do that, than it is for us to blink.
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Khatru

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Re: "What we've got here is failure to communicate..."
« Reply #38 on: February 13, 2016, 06:06:32 PM »
Quote from: Hope on February 13, 2016, 05:01:38 PM
Well, there are things like Bibles and churches, pastors and scholars.  Then there is pray and other Christians.  Or are you suggesting that the only way anyone - deity or otherwise - can communicate in person is by accompanying each human being 24/7?

Whoops!

I forgot to mention that your god will be with you for eternity in heaven, won't he?

Why can't he do that now?
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Enki

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Re: "What we've got here is failure to communicate..."
« Reply #39 on: February 13, 2016, 06:31:47 PM »
Quote from: Gonnagle on February 13, 2016, 11:27:54 AM
Dear Khatru,

Not Gods failure it is the staff he employs.
Gonnagle.

A bit like what  Sepp Blatter claims then. Perhaps He should dismiss Himself for incompetence. ;) :D
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: "What we've got here is failure to communicate..."
« Reply #40 on: February 13, 2016, 10:20:18 PM »
Quote from: Khatru on February 13, 2016, 11:51:52 AM

If the god of the Bible meant for his message to be understood then that same evidence suggests he's failed.

Otherwise we wouldn't have so many different Christian denominations and sects each claiming to be right at the expense of the others.

Then of course, we have the mixed messages in the Bible itself - sure there are good things in there but it's not short of primitive barbarisms either.

Nietzsche questioned the goodness of an omniscient, omnipotent god who doesn't even make sure that his creatures understand his intention. This god who allows doubts to persist for thousands of years. Nietzsche went on to liken the god of the Bible to a deaf man making all kinds of ambiguous signs and gestures when some sort of danger is present.

I hear that Jesus Christ is the son of the supreme cosmic mega being and he was sent to suffer and die in some sort of weird sado-masochistic manner in order for the cosmic mega being to forgive us. 

The communication is so poor that we have to take on trust a miraculous event that was supposedly witnessed by hundreds if not thousands of people that included cameos by prophets like Elijah and Moses went unrecorded. Virtually no historical documentation whatsoever, not a single scrap of papyrus, no drawings on buildings by the faithful, nothing.

And we are apparently wagering an eternity in paradise or hell on this poor communication because the benevolent deity that chose to broadcast his message so obliquely will be angry at us if we conclude that the story is an embellishment or a fabrication since it should be abundantly clear that it is in fact, a fact.

Poor communication indeed.

The very fact that "belief" is demanded as a means of "salvation" is itself a clue that what is really going on here is psychology of the same form that is used by chain letters to propagate themselves. Also true to form as in all good chain letters there are also the dire threats of ignoring the 'offer'.
Denominations are really the same thing but with different emphases.
Sects I move don't have a set of doctrines which consistently back up the Trinitarian premise.
The notion that all denominations are saying the others are wrong is exaggerated and often downright wrong itself.
Sects bowdlerise scripture in much the same way as an antitheist does.
The bible does have mixed messages since it is a collection of books and comes in many genres and points of view.
Talk of a supreme mega being is a bit passe isn't it......HHGTTG went out with flared trousers didn't it. Declaring Douglas Adams 'hip' is a bit like Cliff Richard representing Christian youth until well into his forties.

We all know God's intention is for us to encounter him........I'm afraid antitheists come across as fleeing from that eventuality.
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Shaker

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Re: "What we've got here is failure to communicate..."
« Reply #41 on: February 13, 2016, 10:28:21 PM »
Quote from: Hugh Janus on February 13, 2016, 10:20:18 PM
Talk of a supreme mega being is a bit passe isn't it.....
Well yes exactly, and has been for an awfully long time. But that's what you lot think of as God, isn't it? Or if not, what is it you reckon you praise and worship?
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: "What we've got here is failure to communicate..."
« Reply #42 on: February 13, 2016, 10:35:30 PM »
Quote from: Shaker on February 13, 2016, 10:28:21 PM
Well yes exactly, and has been for an awfully long time. But that's what you lot think of as God, isn't it? Or if not, what is it you reckon you praise and worship?
''Supreme mega being'' is straight out of the bumper book of Marvel.......I suppose that makes me one of the X men.
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Shaker

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Re: "What we've got here is failure to communicate..."
« Reply #43 on: February 13, 2016, 10:37:48 PM »
Quote from: Hugh Janus on February 13, 2016, 10:35:30 PM
''Supreme mega being'' is straight out of the bumper book of Marvel.......I suppose that makes me one of the X men.
Hmmmm, lovely.

So what do your lot think God actually is, then?
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Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

floo

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Re: "What we've got here is failure to communicate..."
« Reply #44 on: February 14, 2016, 08:27:46 AM »
Quote from: Hope on February 13, 2016, 05:49:12 PM
Floo, if I read a book, I take lessons and ideas from it that are different to what you would take out of it.  We've both had different experiences so have different issues to deal with.  As for communicating directly, how would you expect a deity to this?

If it exists it should appear in person to the whole world in a way which was undeniable to anyone. Surely that task would be easy peasy to an omnipotent god, which is supposed to have created the whole universe!
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Shaker

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Re: "What we've got here is failure to communicate..."
« Reply #45 on: February 14, 2016, 08:50:59 AM »
Quote from: Floo on February 14, 2016, 08:27:46 AM
If it exists it should appear in person to the whole world in a way which was undeniable to anyone. Surely that task would be easy peasy to an omnipotent god, which is supposed to have created the whole universe!
In formal terms this is known as the Divine Hiddenness Argument, and like all such arguments is unanswerable.
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Hope

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Re: "What we've got here is failure to communicate..."
« Reply #46 on: February 14, 2016, 09:38:58 AM »
Quote from: Shaker on February 13, 2016, 10:28:21 PM
Well yes exactly, and has been for an awfully long time. But that's what you lot think of as God, isn't it? Or if not, what is it you reckon you praise and worship?
The problem with a 'supreme mega being' concept is that such a being would be impersonal, and distant (a bit like the Muslim's Allah or the Hindu's Brahma).  For the Jew and the Christian, God is personal and present.  That's where the analogy falls down, Shakes.
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Shaker

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Re: "What we've got here is failure to communicate..."
« Reply #47 on: February 14, 2016, 09:40:28 AM »
Quote from: Hope on February 14, 2016, 09:38:58 AM
The problem with a 'supreme mega being' concept is that such a being would be impersonal, and distant (a bit like the Muslim's Allah or the Hindu's Brahma).  For the Jew and the Christian, God is personal and present.  That's where the analogy falls down, Shakes.
No it doesn't fall down at all. Why would such a being be impersonal and distant?
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Hope

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Re: "What we've got here is failure to communicate..."
« Reply #48 on: February 14, 2016, 09:47:10 AM »
Quote from: Khatru on February 13, 2016, 06:04:18 PM
Why not? 
Khat, if a national ruler wants to deal with another national ruler, does s/he always travel to meet them face2face?  No, national rulers have ambassadors who act on their behalf.  This is exactly what the Great Commission in Matthew 28 is all about.  Jesus appoints ambassadors to act on his behalf, an appointment that wasn't for a generation only, but for all time.  He, in the nature of the Holy Spirit, is therefore present and at work in the world today.
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Hope

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Re: "What we've got here is failure to communicate..."
« Reply #49 on: February 14, 2016, 09:48:13 AM »
Quote from: Shaker on February 14, 2016, 09:40:28 AM
No it doesn't fall down at all. Why would such a being be impersonal and distant?
The concept comes from modern comics and always is.  Are you seeking to reinvent the concept?
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