"What we've got here is failure to communicate..."

[Shaker]

Shakes,

Well, I did warn you about troll-boy's tactics a few posts back...the barrage of dull incomprehension and dishonesty you've had is all too typical I'm afraid. Suffice it to say that the materialism schtick is a piece of deep misunderstanding that he's had corrected by me and by others dozens of times now, but he's so invested in it that he clings to it nonetheless as a man clings to a plutonium parachute.

Be nice if t-b or anyone else for that matter would ever finally turn his attention finally to suggesting a method to distinguish his faith claims from just guessing about stuff but, as we know all too well by now, that's a door that'll remain forever locked.

Ah well.

I know bluey, I know all about it - I know that nearly all the time it's like using a rocking chair (it gives you something to do for a while but you won't get anywhere) but I enjoy the practice!

[jeremyp]

No, it's why you are part of the problem.

This is you trying to shut me up with ad hominems, I suppose.

One true wayism, arrogance, the sense of superiority etc.

Wouldn't you rather be right than wrong? Wouldn't you rather be knowledgeable than ignorant?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Shakes,

Well, I did warn you about troll-boy's tactics a few posts back...the barrage of dull incomprehension and dishonesty you've had is all too typical I'm afraid. Suffice it to say that the materialism schtick is a piece of deep misunderstanding that he's had corrected by me and by others dozens of times now, but he's so invested in it that he clings to it nonetheless as a man clings to a plutonium parachute.

Be nice if t-b or anyone else for that matter would ever finally turn his attention finally to suggesting a method to distinguish his faith claims from just guessing about stuff but, as we know all too well by now, that's a door that'll remain forever locked.

Ah well.

I'm sorry when you say distinguishable from guessing do you mean.....from your point of view or from my point of view?
If the former why should your point of view take presidence over my word about what I experience?
Do you mean Guessing  to come up with a provisional answer based from factual knowledge about the material world?
Why should knowledge of God be based on something material? That is merely scientism isn't it and scientism is most definitely an act of faith without scientific evidence.

[Bubbles]

This is you trying to shut me up with ad hominems, I suppose.

Wouldn't you rather be right than wrong? Wouldn't you rather be knowledgeable than ignorant?

No, not really. ( shut u up)

It's just you are so sure you are right and everyone else is a cretin, that sometimes the attitude shows.

So many ignorant things have been done by people who firmly believed they were right and knowledgable. ( not aimed at you).

I don't think being knowledgable and thinking you are right all the time sit comfortably together.

 

I think you can be overexposed to people who know they are right and think they are more knowledgable.


Sometimes I think being right all the time is overrated.

We all have our individual perspectives after all.

[Khatru]

I expect you said that for applause. You wanted to get the clap from your antitheist supporters.

Nope

I said it to rile you.

Looks like I succeeded.

[Khatru]

If the former why should your point of view take presidence over my word about what I experience?

What you experience?

Aren't you the lucky one?

The supreme cosmic mega being has picked you out.

Care to share with us what he said to you?

[bluehillside Retd.]

Khatru,

What you experience?

Aren't you the lucky one?

The supreme cosmic mega being has picked you out.

Care to share with us what he said to you?

The winner of next Saturday's 4.30 at Kempton Park would be handy. Oddly though these supposedly divine visitations never seem to convey anything, you know, useful - like a cure for childhood cancers for example. One might almost think that those who think a universe-creating deity had been in touch were wilfully avoiding the various alternative (though much less personally thrilling) explanations for the episode.

And yet each of them possessed of the notion that only his was the real god will dismiss the claims of the others while demanding to be taken seriously himself without one iota of an effort to explain he's right and the rest are wrong...

...which is all jolly japes and all that, except over these years some of these bozos have used their "it's true for you too" presumption to hurt a lot of people with their beliefs. It's a kicker innit?   

[Khatru]

Khatru,

The winner of next Saturday's 4.30 at Kempton Park would be handy. Oddly though these supposedly divine visitations never seem to convey anything, you know, useful - like a cure for childhood cancers for example. One might almost think that those who think a universe-creating deity had been in touch were wilfully avoiding the various alternative (though much less personally thrilling) explanations for the episode.

And yet each of them possessed of the notion that only his was the real god will dismiss the claims of the others while demanding to be taken seriously himself without one iota of an effort to explain he's right and the rest are wrong...

...which is all jolly japes and all that, except over these years some of these bozos have used their "it's true for you too" presumption to hurt a lot of people with their beliefs. It's a kicker innit?   

There are times when  think that even the most pious of believers sometimes contemplate all the good things they would do if they had the powers their god does.

Question is:  Do they then wonder why their god hasn't done any of those good things?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Nope

I said it to rile you.

Looks like I succeeded.

That's typical of you..............Pure rile.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Khatru,

There are times when  think that even the most pious of believers sometimes contemplate all the good things they would do if they had the powers their god does.

Question is:  Do they then wonder why their god hasn't done any of those good things?

I think they do - or rather that those who did their thinking for them way back when did. That's why they have this whole ontology of "Satan", "free will", "original sin", "fall from grace" etc to explain away the contradictions in the notion of a god of the omnis. It's infantile (and infantilising) I think - imputing causal agencies for natural phenomena, much as I would offer to smack the branch that had "hit" my children when they were toddlers - yet presumably the people who espouse it here are adults. Arrested development perhaps? Who knows.

I think too that it signifies a lack of curiosity - if I woke up one morning convinced that I'd had a visit from a god I'd think, "wow - that's a strong feeling. I wonder what the various explanations for it could be, and how I should go about investigating them" whereas all-too-often here we see people just flatly assert "it was God" and moreover decide that it's the same god as the one they just happen to be most culturally acclimatised to, just as different peoples at different times have done with the gods most proximate to them.

Funny old world innit?   
   

[Dicky Underpants]

So none of that Jesus Myth nonsense for you then...Good man.

I didn't know you were familiar enough with Vermes to be going around referring to him as a geezer.

It's quite astonishing that you need to be reminded of the many options when you cited the trite old C.S. Lewis line "If he wasn't God then what" (and of course Lewis came up with only two other pathetic options). Geza Vermes and E.P. Sanders have done sterling work to argue for another option, and the seeds of such arguments go back at least to Schweitzer. In fact, of course, they are present clearly in the gospels themselves. The disciples on the road to Emmaus express this simple view, before a mass of Christian mythologizing got to work.
There are of course other options which you ought to know about. The fact that mainstream Christianity has asserted the Trinitarian view is neither here nor there.
And any other Christians who glibly want to state "Jesus said he was God" is likely to make me break out into a string of expletives likely to cause BA to burst a blood vessel, were he to be looking in.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Khatru,

I think they do - or rather that those who did their thinking for them way back when' did. That's why they have this whole ontology of "Satan", "free will", "original sin", "fall from grace" etc to explain away the contradictions in the notion of a god of the omnis. It's infantile (and infantilising) I think - imputing causal agencies for natural phenomena, much as I would offer to smack the branch that had "hit" my children when they were toddlers - yet presumably the people who espouse it here are adults. Arrested development perhaps? Who knows.

I think too that it signifies a lack of curiosity - if I woke up one morning convinced that I'd had a visit from a god I'd think, "wow - that's a strong feeling. I wonder what the various explanations for it could be, and how I should go about investigating them" whereas all-too-often here we see people just flatly assert "it was God" and moreover decide that it's the same god as the one they just happen to be most culturally acclimatised to, just as different peoples at different times have done with the gods most proximate to them.

Funny old world innit?   
 

A bit of a caricature of conversion here.
You give the impression that good antitheists are having their cocoa going up the wooden stairs to Bedfordshire and waking up as converts.

You just have to read available accounts that this isn't usually the case.
Many Christians weigh up the arguments and most have subsequent doubts through whic the insufficiency of your kind of take becomes apparent.
Caricature believers and caricature conversions.

[Dicky Underpants]

You just have to read available accounts that this isn't usually the case.
Many Christians weigh up the arguments and most have subsequent doubts through whic the insufficiency of your kind of take becomes apparent.
Caricature believers and caricature conversions.

In my experience it very often is nowadays, even though there is a vast amount of critical literature at hand to allow the convert to weigh up the nature of his/her conversion. Generally the emotional impact of the conversion experience holds sway, and confirmation bias (sustained by checking out a few salient scriptures that seem to pertain to the experience) does the rest.
St Augustine's conversion does not particularly impress me (just to pick one famous one). He was already a  believer in things spiritual. Part of his conversion seemed to depend upon hearing a child singing "tolle, lege" (pick up and read) which urged him to open the Bible at a point where he felt the coincidence of the selected verse was guiding him into ultimate truth.
I wonder what would have happened if he'd opened up to "My brother Esau is an hairy man, but I am a smooth man".

[Bubbles]

wonder what would have happened if he'd opened up to "My brother Esau is an hairy man, but I am a smooth man".

He'd have become a bald Christian, and all his statues would have looked like Kojak 😉🌹

🍭🍭🍭🍭🍭

[Walt Zingmatilder]

It my experience if very often is nowadays, even though there is a vast amount of critical literature at hand to allow the convert to weigh up the nature of his/her conversion. Generally the emotional impact of the conversion experience holds sway, and confirmation bias (sustained by checking out a few salient scriptures that seem to pertain to the experience) does the rest.
St Augustine's conversion does not particularly impress me (just to pick one famous one). He was already a  believer in things spiritual. Part of his conversion seemed to depend upon hearing a child singing "tolle, lege" (pick up and read) which urged him to open the Bible at a point where he felt the coincidence of the selected verse was guiding him into ultimate truth.
I wonder what would have happened if he'd opened up to "My brother Esau is an hairy man, but I am a smooth man".

Confirmation bias plagues us all.
You aren't impressed by Augustines conversion but reading what you put this is on the grounds of it not being dramatic enough.
Hillside hypothesis what conversion might be like and how he would treat an encounter with God. He says nothing about the challenge of being in the presence of the holy So there is for me something missing from his account. I'm not sure though whether his search for alternatives wouldn't just be a search for loopholes or escape on the other hand I'm pretty sure God wouldn't disapprove of honest doubt about things since other conversion accounts attest to wilderness periods...I'm thinking of Bunyan here.

[Khatru]

Many Christians weigh up the arguments and most have subsequent doubts

Hardly surprising.

Do they check out all of the many myths and belief systems to see which one has the best miracles, ethics, etc before making their choice of ju-ju?

I suspect not.

Why would they have subsequent doubts?

I guess it's because the supreme cosmic mega being didn't do a particularly good job in communicating his message; which, coincidentally, brings us back to the original post in this thread.

 

[jeremyp]

It's just you are so sure you are right and everyone else is a cretin, that sometimes the attitude shows.

I could say the same for you.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Hardly surprising.

Do they check out all of the many myths and belief systems to see which one has the best miracles, ethics, etc before making their choice of ju-ju?

I suspect not.

Why would they have subsequent doubts?

I guess it's because the supreme cosmic mega being didn't do a particularly good job in communicating his message; which, coincidentally, brings us back to the original post in this thread.

Well obviously given your description of religion you have done no such survey before alighting on a brainless anti theism.

Had you done so you would have seen they offer different things.

Very few to my view go as far as Christianity both in its theology or anthropology.

[Khatru]

Well obviously given your description of religion you have done no such survey before alighting on a brainless anti theism.

Had you done so you would have seen they offer different things.

Very few to my view go as far as Christianity both in its theology or anthropology.

OK, I promise to try and take you seriously.  Even though you make it hard by insisting you've had personal revelation(s) from the supreme cosmic mega being(s).

Just remember "I feel him in my heart" is not valid data.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

OK, I promise to try and take you seriously.  Even though you make it hard by insisting you've had personal revelation(s) from the supreme cosmic mega being(s).

Just remember "I feel him in my heart" is not valid data.

First of all. You asked about what makes Christianity superior to what you described as myths and legends.

I can answer that straight away by saying it is more philosophically productive.

In fact it is more philosophically productive than the scientist from which your arguments spring from.

[jeremyp]

First of all. You asked about what makes Christianity superior to what you described as myths and legends.

I can answer that straight away by saying it is more philosophically productive.

Can you give some examples please.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Can you give some examples please.

Certainly the influence on political, ethical and scientific philosophy.

[jeremyp]

Certainly the influence on political, ethical and scientific philosophy.

How has Christianity influenced any of these? Please give examples.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

How has Christianity influenced any of these? Please give examples.

Politically the idea of equality, antislavery , civil rights, scientific the idea that the universe is rational as created through a rational logos. Ethically, the concept of loving ones neighbour.

[jeremyp]

Politically the idea of equality, antislavery , civil rights,

None of those political idea have anything to do with Christianity. Slavery was abolished a mere 1,500 years after Christianity became widespread, civil rights a mere 1,700 years after Christianity became widespread and equality hasn't really happened yet. In fact many Christians are actively fighting against equality.

scientific the idea that the universe is rational

That is not a Christian idea

as created through a rational logos.

That is not a scientific idea.

Ethically, the concept of loving ones neighbour.

I'll give you that one.