Author Topic: Pope John Paul II...  (Read 30709 times)

Sriram

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Pope John Paul II...
« on: February 15, 2016, 09:03:32 AM »
Hi everyone,

Here is an interesting article about Pope John Paul II before he became a pope... and his relationship with a married woman.  There are photographs of the pope in shorts at a camping site.

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-35552997

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Pope John Paul II was one of the most influential figures of the 20th Century, revered by millions and made a saint in record time, just nine years after he died. The BBC has seen letters he wrote to a married woman, the Polish-born philosopher Anna-Teresa Tymieniecka, that shed new light on his emotional life.

After her death, a huge cache of photographs was found among her possessions. We are used to seeing John Paul in formal papal clothing amid the grandeur of the Vatican, and yet here he is on the ski slopes, wearing shorts on a lake-side camping trip, and, in old age, entertaining privately in his rather sparse-looking living quarters.

When the two met in 1973, Cardinal Karol Wojtyla - as he then was - was the Archbishop of Krakow. Anna-Teresa Tymieniecka was Polish by birth, and, like him, had endured the searing experience of the Nazi occupation during World War Two. After the war she left to study abroad and eventually pursued an academic career as a philosopher in the United States, where she married and had three children.

So the first hint of any real intimacy comes in a letter sent not from Krakow, but from Rome, where Cardinal Wojtyla spent more than a month attending a meeting of Catholic bishops in the autumn of 1974. He took several of her letters with him so that he could answer them "without using the mail", and writes that they are "so meaningful and deeply personal, even if they are written in philosophical 'code'".

Towards the end of the letter he adds that "there are issues which are too difficult for me to write about".

I have only seen one side of the correspondence - his letters to her - and it is, of course, sometimes impossible to know what the cardinal is referring to. But I have done some old-fashioned journalistic sleuthing, and I believe that at an early stage of the relationship - probably in the summer of 1975 - Anna-Teresa Tymieniecka told Karol Wojtyla that she was in love with him.

Carl Bernstein, the veteran investigative journalist of Watergate fame, was the first writer to get some sense of Anna-Teresa Tymieniecka's importance in John Paul's life. He interviewed her for the book His Holiness in the 1990s.

"We are talking about Saint John Paul. This is an extraordinary relationship," he says. "It's not illicit, nonetheless it's fascinating. It changes our perception of him."

**************

Heart warming!

Cheers.

Sriram

floo

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Re: Pope John Paul II...
« Reply #1 on: February 15, 2016, 10:42:58 AM »
I heard that story on the news this morning. I am glad J-P2 had a significant other, even if their friendship was platonic. It was so sad that the Catholic Church expects their clergy to be celibate, UNLESS of course they are an Anglican priest who changes sides. I can't understand how they can accept a non celibate Anglican priest, but not allow their home grown variety to get married!

Shaker

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Re: Pope John Paul II...
« Reply #2 on: February 15, 2016, 11:53:22 AM »
I heard that story on the news this morning. I am glad J-P2 had a significant other, even if their friendship was platonic. It was so sad that the Catholic Church expects their clergy to be celibate, UNLESS of course they are an Anglican priest who changes sides. I can't understand how they can accept a non celibate Anglican priest, but not allow their home grown variety to get married!
It's called a dodge, Floo ;)
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Rhiannon

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Re: Pope John Paul II...
« Reply #3 on: February 15, 2016, 12:26:50 PM »
Thomas Merton famously wrote of his love affair with a nurse in his journals. Such a stupidly wrong thing to expect and impose, celibacy.


Concelebration early. I stood there among all the others, soberly aware of myself as a priest who has a woman… Before God I think we have been conscientious and have kept our love good. Yet is it reasonable for me to be writing her love poems – even a song?

True as our love may be, we have to be perfectly realistic about it. Today especially I was thinking we must be realistic in our expectations for the future. There just is no real future for our love as a real 'love' affair. In heaven maybe we will be one. It is perhaps true that she loves me more than she ever loved anyone and that she wants to give herself totally to me for life. But we cannot do anything about it. I see clearly that we are both torn by contradictions… I see that I have to really 'love her' and not just love love or love her body. It is a training in realism and in love of 'the person' she is (a person inexhaustibly beautiful and lovable to me).


From Learning to Love.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2016, 12:32:39 PM by Rhiannon »

Shaker

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Re: Pope John Paul II...
« Reply #4 on: February 15, 2016, 12:33:32 PM »
I had some of the volumes of Merton's journals and remember reading about this.

An ultimately tragic business all round :(
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Rhiannon

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Re: Pope John Paul II...
« Reply #5 on: February 15, 2016, 12:34:34 PM »
Yes. Very much so.  :(

Nearly Sane

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Re: Pope John Paul II...
« Reply #6 on: February 15, 2016, 12:42:32 PM »
And of course there is John Henry Newman's attachment to Ambrose St John; one that lead to them being buried side by side. That burial was, of course, disinterred in order to allow JHN's relics t be venerated more 'appropriately ' but the old chap had dissolved.

ad_orientem

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Re: Pope John Paul II...
« Reply #7 on: February 15, 2016, 12:55:16 PM »
Thomas Merton famously wrote of his love affair with a nurse in his journals. Such a stupidly wrong thing to expect and impose, celibacy.


Concelebration early. I stood there among all the others, soberly aware of myself as a priest who has a woman… Before God I think we have been conscientious and have kept our love good. Yet is it reasonable for me to be writing her love poems – even a song?

True as our love may be, we have to be perfectly realistic about it. Today especially I was thinking we must be realistic in our expectations for the future. There just is no real future for our love as a real 'love' affair. In heaven maybe we will be one. It is perhaps true that she loves me more than she ever loved anyone and that she wants to give herself totally to me for life. But we cannot do anything about it. I see clearly that we are both torn by contradictions… I see that I have to really 'love her' and not just love love or love her body. It is a training in realism and in love of 'the person' she is (a person inexhaustibly beautiful and lovable to me).


From Learning to Love.

Men enter the priesthood freely knowing thr requirements. No one is forced to become a priest. One can freely leave the priesthood. Don't see the problem or what is "wrong".
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Rhiannon

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Re: Pope John Paul II...
« Reply #8 on: February 15, 2016, 12:59:52 PM »
That doesn't surprise me in the slightest, ad-o.

ad_orientem

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Re: Pope John Paul II...
« Reply #9 on: February 15, 2016, 01:01:40 PM »
That doesn't surprise me in the slightest, ad-o.

I'm sure it doesn't. Maybe you can address my points and tell me why you think I'm wrong?

1. Isn't the priesthood entered freely?
2. Does not the person entering the priesthood know the requirements?
3. Isn't one free to leave the priesthood?
4. If the answer to all the above is "yes", what's the problem?
« Last Edit: February 15, 2016, 01:05:36 PM by ad_orientem »
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Shaker

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Re: Pope John Paul II...
« Reply #10 on: February 15, 2016, 01:05:52 PM »
Men enter the priesthood freely knowing thr requirements. No one is forced to become a priest. One can freely leave the priesthood. Don't see the problem or what is "wrong".
Merely saying "Them's the rules" is no answer if a rule is a bloody stupid one in the first place.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

ad_orientem

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Re: Pope John Paul II...
« Reply #11 on: February 15, 2016, 01:09:01 PM »
Merely saying "Them's the rules" is no answer if a rule is a bloody stupid one in the first place.

Stupid according to whom? Purely subjective on your part.
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jeremyp

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Re: Pope John Paul II...
« Reply #12 on: February 15, 2016, 01:13:23 PM »
I'm sure it doesn't. Maybe you can address my points and tell me why you think I'm wrong?

1. Isn't the priesthood entered freely?
2. Does not the person entering the priesthood know the requirements?
3. Isn't one free to leave the priesthood?
4. If the answer to all the above is "yes", what's the problem?

Many people feel called to the priesthood by God, or so I am told. So points 1 and 3 may not apply, at least not as far as they are concerned.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Pope John Paul II...
« Reply #13 on: February 15, 2016, 01:13:51 PM »
I'm sure it doesn't. Maybe you can address my points and tell me why you think I'm wrong?

Because by its approach it creates a pointless gender division and hierarchy  that has been used by morons throughout the centuries to abuse and mistreat women, and in its treatment of sex as somehow dirty meant that people have suffered and died because of the dread of even talking about something akin to eating.

You, of course, will put this down to the activities of a mythological creature called Satan but then that would just underline how your omni god cannot even come up with a basic administration structure that doesn't lead to easy abuse by another one of his creations and which he is omnimax is all part of the grand plan and cannot be any different. So that abuse is his intention, his choice, his creation. He is a fatuous creation of dic kwads who wouldn't know logic if it had a twelve inch dic k stuck in the cesspools that are their minds.

Rhiannon

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Re: Pope John Paul II...
« Reply #14 on: February 15, 2016, 01:14:50 PM »
People have feelings, and feelings change. A man can sign up to the priesthood honestly not expecting to fall in love and then find himself doing so quite unexpectedly. In Merton's case he had back surgery and fell in love with a nurse who cared for him. This cost both of them hugely.

Individual suffering and tragedy aside, what has to be remembered is that love, sex, intimacy and partnership are all part of the human make-up and we deny them at our peril. Yes, some will genuinely not have a need for them as a part of their make-up but most of us do. Priests are asked to deny that part of themselves and in doing so they shut off something that could enable them to do their jobs better, not just through a greater understanding of the lives of their parishioners but because having a fulfilling and loving intimate relationship brings out the best in all of us.

And this is without considering whether the screwed up attitude to sex and celibacy has led to some of the catalogue of abuse we have seen.

Shaker

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Re: Pope John Paul II...
« Reply #15 on: February 15, 2016, 01:15:09 PM »
Stupid according to whom?
According to normally-constituted people who think that there's little enough love and the happiness it brings in the world as it is and that anything that puts barriers in its way is to be deplored.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2016, 01:21:19 PM by Shaker »
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Shaker

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Re: Pope John Paul II...
« Reply #16 on: February 15, 2016, 01:20:12 PM »
People have feelings, and feelings change. A man can sign up to the priesthood honestly not expecting to fall in love and then find himself doing so quite unexpectedly. In Merton's case he had back surgery and fell in love with a nurse who cared for him. This cost both of them hugely.
The truly odious thing about the Merton business is that his obedience to his vows made not just one person desperately unhappy but two; it brought deep pain and grief not just to himself but to the nurse concerned. So chalk up an addition to the unhappiness of the world to the tune of two good people.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Pope John Paul II...
« Reply #17 on: February 15, 2016, 01:20:42 PM »
Stupid according to whom? Purely subjective on your part.

Stupid is essentially a subjective claim. As is 'right' in this context. I have no idea why you absolutists think playing the 'relativity game' helps you. It merely means you reduce all your attempts at objective claims to digital mush.

Rhiannon

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Re: Pope John Paul II...
« Reply #18 on: February 15, 2016, 01:26:03 PM »
The truly odious thing about the Merton business is that his obedience to his vows made not just one person desperately unhappy but two; it brought deep pain and grief not just to himself but to the nurse concerned. So chalk up an addition to the unhappiness of the world to the tune of two good people.

Absolutely. And if he'd been an Episcopalian there wouldn't have been a problem.

What an utter mess.

ad_orientem

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Re: Pope John Paul II...
« Reply #19 on: February 15, 2016, 01:27:19 PM »
Because by its approach it creates a pointless gender division and hierarchy  that has been used by morons throughout the centuries to abuse and mistreat women, and in its treatment of sex as somehow dirty meant that people have suffered and died because of the dread of even talking about something akin to eating.

You, of course, will put this down to the activities of a mythological creature called Satan but then that would just underline how your omni god cannot even come up with a basic administration structure that doesn't lead to easy abuse by another one of his creations and which he is omnimax is all part of the grand plan and cannot be any different. So that abuse is his intention, his choice, his creation. He is a fatuous creation of dic kwads who wouldn't know logic if it had a twelve inch dic k stuck in the cesspools that are their minds.

Eh? If a man feels he cannot commit to celibacy then he obviously is not called to the priesthood.
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ad_orientem

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Re: Pope John Paul II...
« Reply #20 on: February 15, 2016, 01:28:51 PM »
People have feelings, and feelings change. A man can sign up to the priesthood honestly not expecting to fall in love and then find himself doing so quite unexpectedly. In Merton's case he had back surgery and fell in love with a nurse who cared for him. This cost both of them hugely.

Individual suffering and tragedy aside, what has to be remembered is that love, sex, intimacy and partnership are all part of the human make-up and we deny them at our peril. Yes, some will genuinely not have a need for them as a part of their make-up but most of us do. Priests are asked to deny that part of themselves and in doing so they shut off something that could enable them to do their jobs better, not just through a greater understanding of the lives of their parishioners but because having a fulfilling and loving intimate relationship brings out the best in all of us.

And this is without considering whether the screwed up attitude to sex and celibacy has led to some of the catalogue of abuse we have seen.

As I said, if a man cannot commit to celibacy then he obviously isn't called to the priesthood.
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Rhiannon

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Re: Pope John Paul II...
« Reply #21 on: February 15, 2016, 01:31:01 PM »
As I said, if a man cannot commit to celibacy then he obviously isn't called to the priesthood.

Doesn't work like that. A man is called, commits and then quite unexpectedly falls in love. It's no different from somebody marrying and making vows in all sincerity and then falling out of love, or in love with someone else.

Sriram

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Re: Pope John Paul II...
« Reply #22 on: February 15, 2016, 01:31:44 PM »
Hi everyone,

1. The sex need is considered the most powerful (even more than hunger and sleep) of our basic urges. It directly links us to our animal past.....and among all those urges that we share with animals, sex is the most powerful.

2. Even many people who can control their eating and sleeping....find it difficult to control their sexual urge.

3. Sex has more of the mental element than the physical and out thoughts and imagination can contribute considerably to our sexual urge. This is another reason why controlling the sex urge is important. 

4. Also, unlike hunger and sleep, sex can contribute to very powerful jealousies, anger, possessiveness etc. Even murder can be a result of strong sexual urges.

5. One might share ones last piece of bread with someone but no one will share his woman.  If anyone shares a woman he is considered a horrible and brutal person.

6. Unlike hunger, sex involves the likes and dislikes, approval and disapproval of another person...so it needs to be kept in check more carefully.  Rapes and molestation happen for sex...not  for food.

7. Society has sought to control this very important animal urge through various ways. First through a system of marriage, then monogamy....and in special instances, celibacy. 
 
8. We can see from our own lives that if a person eats too much we don't necessarily dislike that person (we even like such people often), but if a person is a sex maniac he is usually shunned as a pervert and a psychopath.

9. Controlling the sex urge is therefore a direct link to our civilized nature. It separates the human from the animal-like most significantly.

No wonder celibacy is considered an important sign of ones advancement from the animal nature.

Cheers.

Sriram 
« Last Edit: February 15, 2016, 01:46:03 PM by Sriram »

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Pope John Paul II...
« Reply #23 on: February 15, 2016, 01:32:00 PM »
Many people feel called to the priesthood by God, or so I am told. So points 1 and 3 may not apply, at least not as far as they are concerned.
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ad_orientem

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Re: Pope John Paul II...
« Reply #24 on: February 15, 2016, 01:33:10 PM »
Doesn't work like that. A man is called, commits and then quite unexpectedly falls in love. It's no different from somebody marrying and making vows in all sincerity and then falling out of love, or in love with someone else.

Then such is free to leave the priesthood.
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