Pope John Paul II...

[floo]

Feel the Christian love. Again.

So very warm and loving, I am sure Jesus is really proud of him!

[Leonard James]

Dear ad o,

Fasting, have we ever had a thread on fasting, it seems to be a common theme that runs through a lot of religions, even our Lord was sent into the wilderness where he fasted.

Matthew 4:1-11

Gonnagle.

Fasting, or at least dieting, is a good idea. Many humans, except the deprived, are overweight. I think it has something to do with our ability to dress food up so much to make it more appetising. 

[jeremyp]

There is no evidence whatsover which suggests that celibacy causes paedophilia.

Paedophile priests.

Just stop and listen to yourself for a moment and you'll see just how stupid the suggestion is: that otherwise normal men all of a sudden are tempted to molest children because they have not had sex.

Paedophile priests.

It just doesn't make any sense.

Not to anybody who hasn't been driven crazy by denying themselves normal sexual release.

Surely they've heard of a hand?

Doesn't the church view masturbation as a sin too?

[Leonard James]

Feel the Christian love. Again.

Ad-o lets the mask slip so often I'm beginning to think he creams his face! 

[Shaker]

Fasting, or at least dieting, is a good idea. Many humans, except the deprived, are overweight. I think it has something to do with our ability to dress food up so much to make it more appetising. 

More likely that it's because we have an evolutionarily planted yen for fat and sugar - high-calorie crap for when we need it to draw on the store of energy. Unfortunately lifestyles have changed somewhat in the past 200,000 years but the taste for fat and sugar hasn't.

[Leonard James]

More likely that it's because we have an evolutionarily planted yen for fat and sugar - high-calorie crap for when we need it to draw on the store of energy. Unfortunately lifestyles have changed somewhat in the past 200,000 years but the taste for fat and sugar hasn't.

Indeed! If we had to expend the energy to get our food that our forebears did, I don't think there would be so much obesity.

[ad_orientem]

Paedophile priests.
Paedophile priests.
Not to anybody who hasn't been driven crazy by denying themselves normal sexual release.

Doesn't the church view masturbation as a sin too?

Keep on saying it. It might convince you but not to anyone who isn't an idiot. Saying celibacy causes paedophilia is like saying abstinence from from meat causes cannibalism. Yes, masturbation might well be a sin but it's the most natural choice, not paedophilia. Paedophiles sought out the priesthood just as they seek out any other place where they have easy access to children from a position of trust. Priestly celibacy didn't turn them into paedophiles.

[Aruntraveller]

Of course you think that but you're an old hag.

Oh come on. Is that really necessary?

[Sriram]

Dear ad o,

Fasting, have we ever had a thread on fasting, it seems to be a common theme that runs through a lot of religions, even our Lord was sent into the wilderness where he fasted.

Matthew 4:1-11

Gonnagle.

Gonnagle,

Hindus, Jains and Buddhists believe in fasting too. Its a way of  controlling the urge to eat and to develop mental strength. Fasting builds inner strength.

Gandhi was great at fasting and he attributed most of his strength of conviction to fasting.

[Sriram]

Keep on saying it. It might convince you but not to anyone who isn't an idiot. Saying celibacy causes paedophilia is like saying abstinence from from meat causes cannibalism. Yes, masturbation might well be a sin but it's the most natural choice, not paedophilia. Paedophiles sought out the priesthood just as they seek out any other place where they have easy access to children from a position of trust. Priestly celibacy didn't turn them into paedophiles.

That's a valid point, I think.

[Leonard James]

Keep on saying it. It might convince you but not to anyone who isn't an idiot. Saying celibacy causes paedophilia is like saying abstinence from from meat causes cannibalism. Yes, masturbation might well be a sin but it's the most natural choice, not paedophilia. Paedophiles sought out the priesthood just as they seek out any other place where they have easy access to children from a position of trust. Priestly celibacy didn't turn them into paedophiles.

Whilst I agree with most of that, I am sure that celibacy must have a detrimental effect on a man unless he has a very low libido. It might well push him into sexual activity which he wouldn't think of in normal life.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Floo,

You seem to bring out the best in us Christians, you are a shining light in a sea of darkness, the evil deity is looking down and smiling upon you.

Gonnagle.

Dear Leonard,

Fasting, or at least dieting, is a good idea. Many humans, except the deprived, are overweight. I think it has something to do with our ability to dress food up so much to make it more appetising. 

Eating, what could be more basic, we all need to eat, Wigs on the spiritual thread was asking

I do wonder if the term 'spirituality' is losing all meaning.   I get the idea of beyond the physical, so looking at a painting does that, but then if I enjoy a meal, I am not simply registering taste and texture.   

Is eating spiritual, listening to all those chefs on the telly, sounds spiritual to me but food seems to be a common theme in religion, breaking bread, loaves and five fishes, Disciples eating corn, fasting, saying grace before a meal, Eve and the apple.

I think their is something in this fasting thing, I get quite envious when I see Hindu's and Sikh's all sitting down to share a big common meal, food and drink does bring people together.

Gonnagle.

[Leonard James]

Gonnagle,

Hindus, Jains and Buddhists believe in fasting too. Its a way of  controlling the urge to eat...

IT IS controlling the urge to eat!

and to develop mental strength.

Why on earth do you think that?

Fasting builds inner strength.

What does that mean?

Gandhi was great at fasting and he attributed most of his strength of conviction to fasting.

I think he would have been a very stubborn man even if he had never fasted.

[Sriram]

Whilst I agree with most of that, I am sure that celibacy must have a detrimental effect on a man unless he has a very low libido. It might well push him into sexual activity which he wouldn't think of in normal life.

I think pedophilia is an abnormal urge. A small percentage of people have it.

It has nothing to do with restricting the sexual urge. Most pedophiles in society have no restrictions on their sexual activities(hetero or homo sexual).....but they indulge in pedophilia all the same.....even to the extent of trafficking children. 

So....it is unfair to blame religious celibacy as the reason for pedophilia in the church. And only a very small percentage of priests are said to be pedophiles anyway.

It reflects on the individual and not on the principle of celibacy.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Whilst I agree with most of that, I am sure that celibacy must have a detrimental effect on a man unless he has a very low libido. It might well push him into sexual activity which he wouldn't think of in normal life.

But nobody is forced into celibacy in the romantic delusion that somehow people are forced into the priesthood.
Celibacy of an enforced nature as with everything else religion is uniquely supposedly guilty of is more likely outside the church and for reasons yer average antitheist can't be arsed to bother about. Namely economic and social deprivation and not conforming to today's specifications for being a good shag.

[Leonard James]

Dear Leonard,

Eating, what could be more basic, we all need to eat, Wigs on the spiritual thread was asking

Is eating spiritual, listening to all those chefs on the telly, sounds spiritual to me but food seems to be a common theme in religion, breaking bread, loaves and five fishes, Disciples eating corn, fasting, saying grace before a meal, Eve and the apple.

I think their is something in this fasting thing, I get quite envious when I see Hindu's and Sikh's all sitting down to share a big common meal, food and drink does bring people together.

Gonnagle.

Yes, eating in company is not as boring as eating alone ... although I can be very content consuming chocolates on my own! 

[Gonnagle]

Dear Sriram,

Hindus, Jains and Buddhists believe in fasting too. Its a way of  controlling the urge to eat and to develop mental strength. Fasting builds inner strength.

Gandhi was great at fasting and he attributed most of his strength of conviction to fasting.

Yes, fasting is a very interesting subject, but all this talk of food, I am now starving ( Gonnagle you have never starved in your whole life )

Gonnagle.

[ProfessorDavey]

Keep on saying it. It might convince you but not to anyone who isn't an idiot. Saying celibacy causes paedophilia is like saying abstinence from from meat causes cannibalism. Yes, masturbation might well be a sin but it's the most natural choice, not paedophilia. Paedophiles sought out the priesthood just as they seek out any other place where they have easy access to children from a position of trust. Priestly celibacy didn't turn them into paedophiles.

Nope - the point is that sexual urges are perfectly normal, including those who have taken a vow of celibacy. If you create a situation where any route to deal with those urges is seen as sinful, then all routes potentially become equivalent (all are 'sinful'), so for the celibate priest who really cannot control those urges the route with the least likelihood of being found out (i.e. your sin being revealed) may become the most attractive. And of course a child where there is a power relationship is much less likely to 'talk' than an adult.

Now of course there will be some (almost certainly most) for whom masturbation is the easiest (and safest route) but for others only actual sexual contact with another person will do and when consenting sex with an adult is considered off limits in the same manner as non consensual sex with a child, but the latter is less likely to be revealed, then the latter becomes a preferred option.

[Leonard James]

I think pedophilia is an abnormal urge. A small percentage of people have it.

Absolutely.

It has nothing to do with restricting the sexual urge.

It might do, you can't be sure of that.

Most pedophiles in society have no restrictions on their sexual activities(hetero or homo sexual).....but they indulge in pedophilia all the same.....even to the extent of trafficking children.

 

Yes, but you already covered those in your first sentence.

So....it is unfair to blame religious celibacy as the reason for pedophilia in the church. And only a very small percentage of priests are said to be pedophiles anyway.

I didn't! I merely said that celibacy was could affect a a man's behaviour.

It reflects on the individual and not on the principle of celibacy.

Now we're back to genes! 

[jeremyp]

Keep on saying it. It might convince you but not to anyone who isn't an idiot. Saying celibacy causes paedophilia is like saying abstinence from from meat causes cannibalism. Yes, masturbation might well be a sin but it's the most natural choice, not paedophilia. Paedophiles sought out the priesthood just as they seek out any other place where they have easy access to children from a position of trust. Priestly celibacy didn't turn them into paedophiles.

So they have a choice of masturbating (sin status: yes) or sexually assaulting children (sin status: questionable, at least in the Catholic Church).

How about allowing them to have normal sexual relationships like everybody else. It's not as if the Bible says priests can't have spouses.

[Sriram]

Len,

The point is that...some priests who are deprived of normal sexual release might feel attracted to nuns they come across or even to each other in homosexual relations....but pedophilia is abnormal and cannot be a direct effect of restrictions on sex.

[Leonard James]

... but for others only actual sexual contact with another person will do and when consenting sex with an adult is considered off limits in the same manner as non consensual sex with a child, but the latter is less likely to be revealed, then the latter becomes a preferred option.

And I'm sure that if minors are willing to engage in sexual activity with a man, as undoubtedly some are, it could become too much for the priest to resist.

[Leonard James]

Len,

The point is that...some priests who are deprived of normal sexual release might feel attracted to nuns they come across or even to each other in homosexual relations....but pedophilia is abnormal and cannot be a direct effect of restrictions on sex.

Nonsense! Sex with children is just as normal to paedophiles as homosexual activity is to me ... but some forms of sex are illegal, and rightly so.

[ad_orientem]

So they have a choice of masturbating (sin status: yes) or sexually assaulting children (sin status: questionable, at least in the Catholic Church).

You see? I read that last part and now I know you really are an idiot.

How about allowing them to have normal sexual relationships like everybody else. It's not as if the Bible says priests can't have spouses.

If they are already married before they enter the priesthood (or diaconte) then yes. Otherwise, once having received orders it is not possible to receive the sacrament of marriage without ceasing to be a priest first.

[Sriram]

Nonsense! Sex with children is just as normal to paedophiles as homosexual activity is to me ... but some forms of sex are illegal, and rightly so.

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