Can you have a spiritual experience without religion?

[Rhiannon]

No, not you - I think Rhiannon was referring to the fact that sometimes that kind of language can turn into a pissing contest about who is more spiritually advanced than somebody else. Properly attuning to the infinite already implies that there's an improper way to do it - i.e. move out of the way, you're doing it wrong.

Exactly.

[Shaker]

Thought so 

[Bubbles]

No, not you - I think Rhiannon was referring to the fact that sometimes that kind of language can turn into a pissing contest about who is more spiritually advanced than somebody else. Properly attuning to the infinite already implies that there's an improper way to do it - i.e. move out of the way, you're doing it wrong.

Yes I have encountered that, occasionally.

They normally have a much narrower definition of Spiritual.

I think Richard Dawkins claims to be spiritual and an Athiest, I was trying to find something on it.

http://youtu.be/eCX4vAsRo90

[Nearly Sane]

Yes I have encountered that, occasionally.

They normally have a much narrower definition of Spiritual.

I think Richard Dawkins claims to be spiritual and an Athiest, I was trying to find something on it.

Given it was part of the definition you agreed with, might suggest you didn't really look at what it said.

[wigginhall]

Tricky, wiggy, tricky. I know what I mean when I use the term, but it has become so comprehensively privatised that in a sense it has become a sort of private language, population 1, and that's never good for communication.

Yes, I have a lot of New Age friends who talk about spirituality, and I genuinely don't know what they mean now, except nice feelings.   I suppose bad feelings are non-spiritual!

[Rhiannon]

Tricky, wiggy, tricky. I know what I mean when I use the term, but it has become so comprehensively privatised that in a sense it has become a sort of private language, population 1, and that's never good for communication.

Well, maybe it's one of those words for whom we all have individual meanings. Someone like Alan Burns will have strict definitions for 'spirit' and 'soul' so 'spirituality' will fit a very strict set of criteria. For others it will be things such as prayer, a belief in angels or 'spirit'  but without religion that qualifies as 'spiritual'. Some of us here don't recognise a 'spirit' as such but nevertheless accept we have something inside that likes and loves - but then we could debate whether we believe the self is illusory or not or whatever. So maybe it just has to be a word with a very individual meaning.

[Bubbles]

Given it was part of the definition you agreed with, might suggest you didn't really look at what it said.

Yes I can see that it can be read that way now, but my perception of spirituality is very wide, wide enough to accept Athiests like Richard Dawkins have a spiritual side.

Perhaps I could have chosen a better definition.

[Nearly Sane]

If it does have an individual definition, then very individual is like very unique, and means as a term it is useless for discussion.

[Rhiannon]

Yes, I have a lot of New Age friends who talk about spirituality, and I genuinely don't know what they mean now, except nice feelings.   I suppose bad feelings are non-spiritual!

Yes, I have New Age friends too and for them spirituality is very much about taking bad feelings away.

[Rhiannon]

If it does have an individual definition, then very individual is like very unique, and means as a term it is useless for discussion.

And yet here we are discussing it.

I think people tend to gravitate more towards one definition or another. Do maybe it depends on who it is you are having the discussion with. I can discuss it and find common ground with Shaker, Rose and Wiggs but couldn't with most of our Christian posters.

[Bubbles]

" A spiritual person is one who seeks to elevate his perspective , to connect with a sense of timeless wonder, or simply his higher self or his connectedness and smallness within the universe."

Not sure that's any better, because we are all so different.

Some people might use smell and aromatherapy to achieve the same effect.

It's one of those terms it's hard to define, it's a bit woolly.

 

[wigginhall]

Yes, I have New Age friends too and for them spirituality is very much about taking bad feelings away.

I remember week-end groups in the 70s and 80s, which promised bliss and happiness, well, OK, for a few hours, why not.   Please give me a spiritual cheque, and that includes spiritual VAT. 

[Nearly Sane]

Yes I can see that it can be read that way now, but my perception of spirituality is very wide, wide enough to accept Athiests like Richard Dawkins have a spiritual side.

Perhaps I could have chosen a better definition.

This is after all the definition that you said was the best you.knew, and yet you don't seem to agree with it. How then do I even have a clue about why Dawkins might or might not be spiritual for you, and how could we agree or disagree that he is it isn't.

Note I don't think this is really an issue with.your approach, just it is a word that is used a bit like god as if there is a useful common agreed logically consistent meaning, but I don't think there is.

[Nearly Sane]

And yet here we are discussing it.

I think people tend to gravitate more towards one definition or another. Do maybe it depends on who it is you are having the discussion with. I can discuss it and find common ground with Shaker, Rose and Wiggs but couldn't with most of our Christian posters.

But are any of the definitions meaningful and logically consistent. Theists seems to be able to discuss god as if it has those attributes in definitional terms but I don't see it

[Bubbles]

This is after all the definition that you said was the best you.knew, and yet you don't seem to agree with it. How then do I even have a clue about why Dawkins might or might not be spiritual for you, and how could we agree or disagree that he is it isn't.

Note I don't think this is really an issue with.your approach, just it is a word that is used a bit like god as if there is a useful common agreed logically consistent meaning, but I don't think there is.

What about this one?


"Spirituality is a broad concept with room for many perspectives. In general, it includes a sense of connection to something bigger than ourselves, and it typically involves a search for meaning in life. As such, it is a universal human experience—something that touches us all. "

Richard Dawkins probably finds his sense of connection in the natural world and universe (as science portrays it)and mans search for knowledge, his meaning of life is probably drawn from that.

Same I reckon for Stephen Hawking.

Neither of them believe in God, but I'd say the human quest for knowledge, probably leads their sense of spirituality.
It's sort of a feeling or connectiveness or awe
They don't need a God or religious belief tacked on. ( in fact part of that awe requires not adding on God IMO )

So I think they are spiritual in that sense, they are questing for knowledge on something bigger than us, ( the universe) which forms a meaning in their own lives.

Richard Dawkins talks about it here

http://youtu.be/Are53Pg0hZ8

They certainly come across as spiritual in that sense, it's as much an emotional response and their enthusiastic approach suggests they have that side to them.

[SusanDoris]

I wouldn't consider awe etc as spiritual. I think spiritual carries with it ideas of gods or something 'beyond' so wouldn't use it for things like that.

By doing that, I think you are allowing the religious to think they have a monopoly on the word.

[ekim]

Despite what many believers will tell you, religion has no monopoly on this and you certainly don't need to invoke the supernatural in order to have a spiritual experience.

When you experience feelings of awe, mystery, connection, gratitude, etc, you have a psychological state that satisfies the definition of spiritual.  No gods required.

It probably depends upon how you define 'spiritual' and 'religion'.  'Spirit' is a Latin based word which I believe means 'breath, breeze, air' and probably symbolised 'life'. As such it is not so much a search for inner 'psychological' experiences but as Jesus might have put it 'to have life more abundantly' a byproduct of which is joy or bliss.  The word 'religion' also has a Latin origin and meant 're-bind'.  It is probably best suited to Christianity as it has a doctrine of 'the fall' and it implies a reunion with the divine.  Organised religions generally have within them methods about how to achieve this but also persuasive methods on how to bind the individual to the flock.

[Rhiannon]

What about this one?


"Spirituality is a broad concept with room for many perspectives. In general, it includes a sense of connection to something bigger than ourselves, and it typically involves a search for meaning in life. As such, it is a universal human experience—something that touches us all. "

Richard Dawkins probably finds his sense of connection in the natural world and universe (as science portrays it)and mans search for knowledge, his meaning of life is probably drawn from that.

Same I reckon for Stephen Hawking.

Neither of them believe in God, but I'd say the human quest for knowledge, probably leads their sense of spirituality.
It's sort of a feeling or connectiveness.
They don't need a God or religious belief tacked on.

So I think they are spiritual in that sense, they are questing for knowledge on something bigger than us, ( the universe) which forms a meaning in their own lives.

They certainly come across as spiritual in that sense, it's as much an emotional response and their enthusiastic approach suggests they have that side to them.

But that 'search for something bigger' doesn't take into account the aspect of spirituality that is about living mindfully in the moment. That is very often about focussing on the smallest or most familiar things without ascribing any deeper meaning to them.

[Nearly Sane]

Sorry, Rose, but that's one of those definitions that seems to be so wide that it's meaningless. What is connectiveness (is that even a word?). Is an elephant 'bigger than ourselves'? What does 'bigger' mean there? How does it deal with the problem of hard solipsism, or indeed what 'ourselves' might mean there?

I've posted before jokingly that I worship the great god Dunno, there are times when I suspect that spirituality might be other people's Dunno

[wigginhall]

Good point, Rhiannon.   The talk of 'going beyond' is contradicted by those practices which do the opposite.   For example, Zen, oh well, the usual stuff.    But I remember 'be here now' also, I think that was Ram Dass.   Don't avoid life, which again, some New Age people do.   

[Gonnagle]

Dear Sane,

Connectiveness, hows this, three men sitting in a pub, slightly drunk, listening to folk music, they all had big smiles on their faces, each experiencing the same thing, I would say they were all connected, in that small moment.

Was it a spiritual moment, you bet yer hairy arse it was God was with us in that moment.

Gonnagle.

[Rhiannon]

Good point, Rhiannon.   The talk of 'going beyond' is contradicted by those practices which do the opposite.   For example, Zen, oh well, the usual stuff.    But I remember 'be here now' also, I think that was Ram Dass.   Don't avoid life, which again, some New Age people do.

Yep, Ram Dass it was.

I'm reading a book at the moment called The Trauma of Everyday Life by Dr Mark Epstein, a therapist and Buddhist, and the first chapter is called The Way Out is Through. It's really important to remember that, I've found - not just so that you don't avoid life to start with but that when going through it you bear in mind that means you are heading always for the light at the end of the tunnel, even if you can't see it.

[Bubbles]

But that 'search for something bigger' doesn't take into account the aspect of spirituality that is about living mindfully in the moment. That is very often about focussing on the smallest or most familiar things without ascribing any deeper meaning to them.

True.

🌹

[Nearly Sane]

As ever when I get drawn into one of these discussions about something as fluffy as spirituality, I turn to Schopenhauer. This whole burning, burning, yearning feeling inside is about our inability to be anything more than that.

[Maeght]

Connectiveness, hows this, three men sitting in a pub, slightly drunk, listening to folk music, they all had big smiles on their faces, each experiencing the same thing, I would say they were all connected, in that small moment.

They were sharing an experience but how were the connected?