Can you have a spiritual experience without religion?

[Rhiannon]

It's not accurate to describe spirituality as universally fluffy. There are kinds of it that are difficult, meditation being one, some kinds of cloistered lives being another.

[Nearly Sane]

Dear Sane,

Connectiveness, hows this, three men sitting in a pub, slightly drunk, listening to folk music, they all had big smiles on their faces, each experiencing the same thing, I would say they were all connected, in that small moment.

Was it a spiritual moment, you bet yer hairy arse it was God was with us in that moment.

Gonnagle.

I take the point, Gonzo, and I think we are back at Rhiannon's point about small moments. There is an Edwin Morgan poem called iirc Aberdeen Train that refers to.'a Chinese moment in the Mearns' about seeing a vista like something filled with significance like a willow pattern, and yet is made up of nothing significant itself. Perhaps that's the best we can do.

[Nearly Sane]

It's not accurate to describe spirituality as universally fluffy. There are kinds of it that are difficult, meditation being one, some kinds of cloistered lives being another.

I didn't, I used fluffy in the sense of nebulous

[Rhiannon]

I take the point, Gonzo, and I think we are back at Rhiannon's point about small moments. There is an Edwin Morgan poem called iirc Aberdeen Train that refers to.'a Chinese moment in the Mearns' about seeing a vista like something filled with significance like a willow pattern, and yet is made up of nothing significant itself. Perhaps that's the best we can do.

This is exactly what it is to me - small moments, small things, that somehow add up to a life.

[Rhiannon]

I didn't, I used fluffy in the sense of nebulous

Well, 'fluffy' is often used to describe the kind of New Age stuff Wiggs and I were talking about. If you mean hard to grasp or pin down, then yes, I see where you are coming from.

[wigginhall]

It's not accurate to describe spirituality as universally fluffy. There are kinds of it that are difficult, meditation being one, some kinds of cloistered lives being another.

That's right.  I stopped doing serious meditation, as it is so painful and exhausting and frightening.   The old joke: will enlightenment free me from suffering?  No, it will teach you how to suffer.   

[Gonnagle]

Dear Maeght,

They were sharing an experience but how were the connected?

Connected by the experience, we all shared it, it happens in Church, probably skiers find this connection, surfers, sky divers, they all find connectness in the experience.

Gonnagle.

[Shaker]

They were sharing an experience but how were the connected?

I suspect the clue is in the word sharing.

[Shaker]

If it does have an individual definition, then very individual is like very unique, and means as a term it is useless for discussion.

Actually, no. I say that because unique has a very clear, specific, exact and absolute meaning that individual doesn't. It is my individual opinion that the slow movement of Beethoven's String Quartet no. 15 in A minor is sublimely, tear-inducingly beautiful; if you don't agree, well, that's up to you. But it remains individual and can never be anything but. It's an individual opinion which, shared by however many people, isn't unique, by definition.

Unique is simpler and clearer. I am unique in that there is almost certainly no accumulation of atoms anywhere else in the universe (not even if many worlds/parallel universe hypotheses are true) like this one. But of course, that's true for you too.

[Nearly Sane]

Actually, no. I say that because unique has a very clear, specific, exact and absolute meaning that individual doesn't. It is my individual opinion that the slow movement of Beethoven's String Quartet no. 15 in A minor is sublimely, tear-inducingly beautiful; if you don't agree, well, that's up to you. But it remains individual and can never be anything but. It's an individual opinion which, shared by however many people, isn't unique, by definition.

Unique is simpler and clearer. I am unique in that there is almost certainly no accumulation of atoms anywhere else in the universe (not even if many worlds/parallel universe hypotheses are true) like this one. But of course, that's true for you too.

So what's the difference between a very individual experience and an individual one? What's the comparator mean?

[Shaker]

So what's the difference between a very individual experience and an individual one? What's the comparator mean?

If I'm honest I don't even understand the question.

The best I can give you is that individual means something and very individual to me at least doesn't. The word very does no useful work here; it's baggage that adds nothing to the intended meaning.

[Nearly Sane]

If I'm honest I don't even understand the question.

The best I can give you is that individual means something and very individual to me at least doesn't. The word very does no useful work here; it's baggage that adds nothing to the intended meaning.

Which was the point I was making, there isn't any way adding 'very' helps. A thing is either unique or not, individual or not. We add the idea of 'very' as a sort of boldening to emphasise it, and give it some form validity it doesn't deserve.

[Rhiannon]

Dear Maeght,

Connected by the experience, we all shared it, it happens in Church, probably skiers find this connection, surfers, sky divers, they all find connectness in the experience.

Gonnagle.

So how right is this Schulman quote then?

We are always alone. We are never alone. Even in the center of a crowd of friends , we cannot escape our apartness; even in the locked and darkened room, we cannot cut ourselves off from our sense of the life going on outside.

I shared my car drive earlier with one of my kids and I felt connected as part of the shared experience. Yet what we both got from it will have been unique, what we felt, thought about, what it left us with. I think points of connection occur when you know that somehow the person or people you are with gets what it is that you are looking at together in the same way that you do, and you know that or they communicate it to you and you get that moment of shared understanding, whilst acknowledging and even celebrating that the experience isn't identical for you both/all.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Me,

So we are all spiritual,  we can all touch God, even if you don't believe in God, that's nice.

Gonnagle.

[Shaker]

This is exactly what it is to me - small moments, small things, that somehow add up to a life.

I have read a good old many books by various thinkers to this effect - never mind grand narratives and big stories and overarching themes; life is lumpy (like Frank Zappa's gravy) and is composed of bits.

Matches my experience, anyway.

[Shaker]

Dear Me,

So we are all spiritual,  we can all touch God, even if you don't believe in God, that's nice.

Gonnagle.

Dear Me (not you, I mean Me); that's what I say to myself every day I draw breath.

Love, regards and best wishes,

Me.

[Maeght]

I suspect the clue is in the word sharing.

Doesn't mean there is a connection. Shared experience means to have the same experience but a connection implies a link between people through which information or similar is exchanged.

[Maeght]

Dear Me,

So we are all spiritual,  we can all touch God, even if you don't believe in God, that's nice.

Gonnagle.

Not really.

[Rhiannon]

I have read a good old many books by various thinkers to this effect - never mind grand narratives and big stories and overarching themes; life is lumpy (like Frank Zappa's gravy) and is composed of bits.

Matches my experience, anyway.

And that seems to me to be quite comforting. Trying to produce an epic story seems like far too much effort; if I only need to manage this bit and then the next then that's quite doable. Although thinking of it as a colourful (if mismatched) patchwork quilt is more poetic than lumpy gravy.

[Shaker]

Doesn't mean there is a connection. Shared experience means to have the same experience but a connection implies a link between people through which information or similar is exchanged.

It must be just me, then, and my grasp of English at fault; that's exactly what I understand sharing to be.

[wigginhall]

I have read a good old many books by various thinkers to this effect - never mind grand narratives and big stories and overarching themes; life is lumpy (like Frank Zappa's gravy) and is composed of bits.

Matches my experience, anyway.

Very good.  Granulation is OK.

[Shaker]

Very good.  Granulation is OK.

I desperately want to take this man out for a pint or several.

[Maeght]

It must be just me, then, and my grasp of English at fault; that's exactly what I understand sharing to be.

No, no link or communication implied in sharing. People could all sit together and watch a play for example - they are sharing the experience of watching the play, but what they get out of it might be different and there is no link between the people.  That's how I see it anyway. Saying people are connected implies to me something more than just sharing an experience.

[Rhiannon]

No, no link or communication implied in sharing. People could all sit together and watch a play for example - they are sharing the experience of watching the play, but what they get out of it might be different and there is no link between the people.  That's how I see it anyway. Saying people are connected implies to me something more than just sharing an experience.

But that's what I talked about earlier - the connection is seeing the same thing even though you know that every individual experience is unique. You mentioned a connection comes from sgsying information - watching a play or hearing a folk band play is just that.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Rhiannon,

Spiritual, connected ness, they are feelings but as Shaker points out we are all unique, so the joy we feel might be different but we all felt joy, in that one moment we all felt joy, that's the connection.

And on thinking, if you want to analyse it, we could have found lots of connections, the sound of the fiddle, the buzz in the pub, there would probably have been lots of feelings that we had in common.

I don't think I am saying anything controversial, if someone describes a moment of joy, others can relate, I have heard it so many times, "yes I know exactly what you are talking about".

Gonnagle.