Can you have a spiritual experience without religion?

[Khatru]

Dear Vlad,

Wanker with a capital W, was there any need for that

Gonnagle.

He take criticism of his belief system far too personally.

[SusanDoris]

That Sam Harris  book, Waking Up', sounds really interesting, but of course it is not available from  NLB *sigh*. I'll see if I can find out whether there is any audio version available.

There's a video of first chapter ... I've listened to a few minutes so far.

[Khatru]

Dear Khatru,

Sam Harris, he doesn't like the words atheism or atheist, he prefers free thinker, are you an atheist or a free thinker, I am reminded of the lady on radio 2 yesterday talking about praying for Prof Dawkins, she was an atheist, not a free thinker, the subject was prayer, she turned it into a discussion about evolution.

Anyway

Imagined qualities, is Love imagined, compassion, sorrow, happiness, pain, these are all words I equate with God, you wouldn't because you think there is no God, you would say, this is how we evolved, well that's fine, but I say thank God for helping us to evolve into Loving, Caring, Compassionate creatures.

Supernatural, once again, is Love, Compassion, Empathy supernatural, no they are real, just like God.

Gonnagle.

Am I an atheist or a free thinker?

If by atheist you mean someone who doesn't believe in the existence of any gods (I use the plural because there are indeed many gods out there that are and have been worshipped) then guilty as charged.

However, I accept I may be wrong and there is/are a supreme cosmic mega being(s) responsible for creating the whole shebang. 

Does that make me agnostic?  Well, if it does I certainly have strong atheist tendencies!

i also loke the term "secular humanist" and sometimes I feel it fits me.

Re: the list of qualities

I don't see them as being imagined as I experience them in my reality.  To me, the imagined bit is when those qualities are linked to God, Allah, Brahma, Zoroaster, etc.

[ekim]

Yes the light bulbs are connected to the same power source by wires. How does this help regarding humans watching the same event?

To be honest, I read Gonagle's post out of context with the posts which lead up to it and my mind was still on the distinction between spirituality and religion.  However, I have dug back to this quote of yours "Doesn't mean there is a connection. Shared experience means to have the same experience but a connection implies a link between people through which information or similar is exchanged."  I suspect what is meant is that the experience is of an event which a number of people share and the connection or link is an emotional one which is common to those sharing the experience, rather than an exchange of information.  You can see tears in the eyes of people who witness a particular scene, you can almost see the joy in the hearts of those singing in a choir and such emotions can spread and embrace others in a kind of infectious unity.

[Nearly Sane]

'Connectiveness' as Gonnagle sought to illustrate it also needs some 'contextiveness'.

The three puggled men are friends, they have history, they are in a place sacred to them, both as where they first met, and where they return to meet. The music is a bonus of the place, because it is sacred to others, a meeting place, a sharing place, a spiritual place.

[Gonnagle]

Dear ekim,

I suspect what is meant is that the experience is of an event which a number of people share and the connection or link is an emotional one which is common to those sharing the experience, rather than an exchange of information.  You can see tears in the eyes of people who witness a particular scene, you can almost see the joy in the hearts of those singing in a choir and such emotions can spread and embrace others in a kind of infectious unity.

Exactly, an emotional connection.

Gonnagle.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Sane,

The three puggled men are friends, they have history, they are in a place sacred to them, both as where they first met, and where they return to meet. The music is a bonus of the place, because it is sacred to others, a meeting place, a sharing place, a spiritual place.

It is a spiritual place, if those walls could talk, do you believe in ghosts no, of course you don't, but something hangs around in there waiting to be brought to life with banter and music.

Gonnagle.

[Nearly Sane]

Dear Sane,

It is a spiritual place, if those walls could talk, do you believe in ghosts no, of course you don't, but something hangs around in there waiting to be brought to life with banter and music.

Gonnagle.

We are our own ghosts as we travel through time, connected but endlessly different, the sum of our failing memories, fading from the copied thoughts which lose clarity but gain shade, depth.

[Maeght]

To be honest, I read Gonagle's post out of context with the posts which lead up to it and my mind was still on the distinction between spirituality and religion.  However, I have dug back to this quote of yours "Doesn't mean there is a connection. Shared experience means to have the same experience but a connection implies a link between people through which information or similar is exchanged."  I suspect what is meant is that the experience is of an event which a number of people share and the connection or link is an emotional one which is common to those sharing the experience, rather than an exchange of information.

Indeed, but it is describing that as a connection which I am doubting since this implies more than a shared experience to me.

You can see tears in the eyes of people who witness a particular scene, you can almost see the joy in the hearts of those singing in a choir and such emotions can spread and embrace others in a kind of infectious unity.

Again, I quite agree. but I wouldn't describe that as a connection. It is the use of this word which I doubt, not the scenarios, since the word implies to me more than just a shared experience and common emotions and is used by some, I believe, to imply something more.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Maeght,

I am not describing anything deep here, or supernatural, just an OH!! moment, a two minds thinking alike moment, the sharing is the connection, you mentioned that there needs to be a link, an exchange, there was, three big daft stupid grins for one.

What about, we were in harmony, what about our celtic souls connected to the music, what about the spirit moved us, I had two large bells if I remember correctly.

Gonnagle.

[Maeght]

Dear Maeght,

I am not describing anything deep here, or supernatural, just an OH!! moment, a two minds thinking alike moment, the sharing is the connection, you mentioned that there needs to be a link, an exchange, there was, three big daft stupid grins for one.

What about, we were in harmony, what about our celtic souls connected to the music, what about the spirit moved us, I had two large bells if I remember correctly.

Gonnagle.

That's fine Gonnagle, carry on referring to it as a connection if you wish of course. I don't think the word is suitable and that it can imply more, even if you aren't implying more by using it. I think I've made my point and there's no point in just repeating it - if people don't agree that's fine by me.

Cheers

[Gonnagle]

Dear Maeght,

Fair enough old son, agree to disagree, it's only a forum

Gonnagle.

[torridon]

We are our own ghosts as we travel through time, connected but endlessly different, the sum of our failing memories, fading from the copied thoughts which lose clarity but gain shade, depth.

Classic Sane. Enigmatic, beautiful, insightful, and yet economical.  You ought to bottle that.

[Gordon]

We are our own ghosts as we travel through time, connected but endlessly different, the sum of our failing memories, fading from the copied thoughts which lose clarity but gain shade, depth.

That's poetry, that is.

[Nearly Sane]

That's poetry, that is.

Arse!

[Nearly Sane]

....Pretentiousness following...Pretentiousness following...


That last bit needs to be read in a Lord Haw-Haw tone...



Almost everything I write on here is an attempt to move beyond the noumenal, even, or rather particularly the swear words. People write more now than ever, and just because so much of that writing is 'sock ma dix, u whamket' is not a reason to despise it.


Hope's question about communities is valid. However, dysfunctional we are, there is a form of support there. One that isn't easily replicable beyond the virtual. Even though Gonnagle and I live in the same glorious city, close by, we would have passed, may well have passed, on the street. Yet today we know each other. Today we can name our parts.


This small sceptred community allows me to write baroque nonsense, that beyond it would bewitch, bother and bewilder (and does to many here), and that is worth rubies.


So thank you.

[Shaker]

Even though Gonnagle and I live in the same glorious city, close by, we would have passed, may well have passed, on the street. Yet today we know each other. Today we can name our parts.

Fnar

[Nearly Sane]

Fnar

Ah indeed, Finbar Saunders forever. But in case anyone doesn't know the referenced poem

http://www.solearabiantree.net/namingofparts/namingofparts.html

[Samuel]

We are our own ghosts as we travel through time, connected but endlessly different, the sum of our failing memories, fading from the copied thoughts which lose clarity but gain shade, depth.

Urgh! What's with all these old fogies on here and their whistful and maudlin reflections on life?

In the immortal words of Bill Murray "I'm aliiiiive, and so are you!"

...really I'm as big a fan of Sane as anyone else on here. I liked that point about writing. There is a lot of it about. One of my greatest pleasures on these boards is to find a post that includes an exquisite articulation of an idea or feeling that I've never managed to quite get a handle on. It's something to admire and savour. I suppose that is when writing becomes art.

[Rhiannon]

I agree, Sam. In fact it has been pondered whether we should have some kind of creative writing board.

[Rhiannon]

My spirituality is as essential to me as the air I breathe. In the darkest times I've known I can still look at the clouds, the stars, the earth. and knowing that they were there before and will be after whatever troubles me makes me smaller and so my distress shrinks too. And the love I have for the life around me makes me love my own life more. The moments of pure joy found in gazing at a sunset or standing under moonlit trees, walking over frosted fields or singing too loudly on the car, are the things that gave me hope of more to come and still do. And that hope gives me the courage to try for more and think that better is possible.

[Samuel]

I agree, Sam. In fact it has been pondered whether we should have some kind of creative writing board.

I like that idea!

[Rhiannon]

If we get enough takers the mods could be persuaded...

[Bubbles]

Yes I like the idea too.

 

[Shaker]

I could be persuadable ...