Resurrection

[Sassy]

That's omnibenevolence taken care of.

An omniscient god would know how to bring about this state of affairs (moreover while sentient creatures are still alive, not after their deaths, where - very conveniently for those who make assertions such as these - it's somewhat difficult to ascertain the truth of the claim); an omnipotent god would be able to bring about this state of affairs; this state of affairs doesn't exist.

So you have a variety of options as to why this state of affairs does not exist. Let's see if you can work out what they are.

For someone claiming to have read the bible you appear to know so little of the contents.


King James Bible
The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

The reason people don't have it, is because people like you are like the thief. you come to steal, and to kill and to destroy.

You lack faith and wisdom to understand how Gods plan is for all. And all who come to God through Christ are provided for.
Your atheism serves only to keep others away from having that abundant life. You refuse it, they refuse it.
How do you feel to know your belief and action would only serve to prevent others from entering into that perfect state and rest?

Like yourself, others do not want it either. So instead of saying he has not provided. The truth is you decided you do not want it. God has offered you and they refused.

[Sassy]

The Bible gives the lie to that silly statement!

No the bible gives NO lie. People like yourself and shaker just do not want it to be true. You choose not to have what God and Christ have sacrificed for you. And you blame everyone for things being wrong but yourselves and people like you.
Truth is if you wanted to see the world as God wants it. Loving him and your neighbour you would obey. Clearly  a peaceful loving world is not something you want at any price. Even the price of Christs suffering and death.
So the only lie being lived is by you and the statements you make. The truth is you don't want the good things God has for you.

[Sassy]

So the resurrected will be born anew, as if babies. Presumably therefore with no memories to even out any difference between a 90 year old, who lived a full Christian life and an infant who died in child birth.

Let’s examine the consequences of this idea.

The resurrected will be pure spirit unable to feel pain, sadness, etc. This scuppers the idea that they will consider heaven a reward for a life lived by the example of Christ. The sprit will simply be unaware of what happened before it’s death. It also scuppers the idea (oft suggested by Cof E vicars at least) that the resurrected will be reunited with their pre deceased loved ones, they simply won’t remember each other.

The resurrected will have no memorys. Can they create new ones If they are unable to feel pain, sadness, etc.? And if they have no physical body to experience touch, make noise, hear sound etc. What will they have to build their new memories on?

It doesn’t seem to me that there would be much advantage to being in heaven.

W.T.F.P.

You would be better off going to Hell, perhaps there you could keep your memory to understand why you are being punished and your ability to feel as well too, so you can feel the heat!!! If they cannot again W.T.F.P.

And these are the terrors we put into the minds of young Christian children to control them!.

May be you would like to go through your statement showing evidence and using the bible as support from Christ onward.

[Sassy]

Jack Knave asks

If that is the case why do these things keep you awake at night then, and grieve you so, if they are as you say above?

Because I dislike cruelty to children.

I do not want to see human development held back.

And I want to remove at least one of the causes of human conflict.

To remove human conflict you would have to remove man.
Religion and politics are not the cause of human conflict... mans own evil does that all by itself and his thirst for power.

Why not really study mankind and life. You will find that Christ's way would unite all mankind not cause conflict.

[floo]

No the bible gives NO lie. People like yourself and shaker just do not want it to be true. You choose not to have what God and Christ have sacrificed for you. And you blame everyone for things being wrong but yourselves and people like you.
Truth is if you wanted to see the world as God wants it. Loving him and your neighbour you would obey. Clearly  a peaceful loving world is not something you want at any price. Even the price of Christs suffering and death.
So the only lie being lived is by you and the statements you make. The truth is you don't want the good things God has for you.

There is NOTHING good about the Biblical psycho, no human is as evil!

[Ricky Spanish]

And at this point, your argument begins to unravel, john.  'Good' isn't a qualifying trait (not to mention that 'good' is such a nondescript term that it is largely meaningless).
Perhaps it would be a good idea to read the Bible before asking such a question - the New Testament makes it clear that 1) things like pain, ill-health, and even age will not exist in heaven; and 2) Jesus indicates that one's resurrection body - be that spiritual or physical - will be 'new'

Hmmm According to scripture Jesus was resurrected in the same body he had before he died. For example, he still had all the wounds from the crucifixion. So if Jesus set the pattern for the resurrection then surely it will be the same for those who are resurrected in the new kingdom. That they will be raised in the same body.

As Jesus is reported as saying: “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned." (John 5:28-29). Which seems to be saying that the resurrected will come as they are.

Also Paul states to the Corinthians 1:15 that the body that is buried/entombed is the body that is resurrected, albeit in a spiritual/ghostly way, but he seems to indicate that you will be raised in the same body only it will be a better body.

As well as 'see above', Jesus teaches that human practices, such as marriage, will no longer be a concept in heaven.
You are obviously making it far more complex than it really is - look at the way in which you have listed 5 scenarios as if they are different when they are no such thing.

Our John was positing a question of what body the resurrected will have when they rise. Trust you to latch on to something irrelevant and make a piss-poor attempt to make a big deal about it.

[Ricky Spanish]

A paraphrase of Matt 5:13.

So Jesus never said it then... gotcha! 

[floo]

Even if an afterlife did exist, it is the consciousness which would survive death, not the body, imo. Anyway what about bodies which are cremated, how are they going to be restored. Will god wave its magic wand and recreate them?

[Ricky Spanish]

Ahhh but the afterlife that Jesus preached, and Paul for that matter, was not about a heaven. Jesus seems to take the stance that his Father was going to create a new kingdom here on the earth which was only going to be populated with beings of Jesus' choosing.

Paul understanding is that it doesn't matter if the body has turned into dust. Your body will still rise in the guise of how it is before death. Think Star Wars and the ending of episode VI.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGPTrRueZXY

[floo]

Ahhh but the afterlife that Jesus preached, and Paul for that matter, was not about a heaven. Jesus seems to take the stance that his Father was going to create a new kingdom here on the earth which was only going to be populated with beings of Jesus' choosing.

Paul understanding is that it doesn't matter if the body has turned into dust. Your body will still rise in the guise of how it is before death. Think Star Wars and the ending of episode VI.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGPTrRueZXY

That is so credible, NOT!

[Hope]

Going to "heaven" is a self-centred wish. Harming children is an immoral and worrying action.

And what is 'going' to heaven all about, Len?  It seems to me that there are people here, like you, who seem to believe that it is a physical place that a human being may reach sometime after death.

[Hope]

Self centered wish it may be but teaching children to live their lives in fear of that wish, with all the guilt and repression that entails. Without any credible evidence to support the imposition of those beliefs.... adds up to child cruelty.

That's your opinion, but is it a valid opinion?  Growing up in a Christian family, I never felt that I had to fear such a wish.  For me it was more like what happens when one is reasonable at sport and want to get into a team.  One doesn't just rest on one's laurels, one works hard to ensure that one reaches the level required.  Sometimes that will be by listening to the advice of coaches and others in the sport, sometimes its by hard work based on that advice.

[Leonard James]

And what is 'going' to heaven all about, Len?  It seems to me that there are people here, like you, who seem to believe that it is a physical place that a human being may reach sometime after death.

Well, that is how most people here seem to describe it. I fear that, like Sass, you are enclosed in your own idea of what Christianity teaches.

[Leonard James]

That's your opinion, but is it a valid opinion?  Growing up in a Christian family, I never felt that I had to fear such a wish.  For me it was more like what happens when one is reasonable at sport and want to get into a team.  One doesn't just rest on one's laurels, one works hard to ensure that one reaches the level required.  Sometimes that will be by listening to the advice of coaches and others in the sport, sometimes its by hard work based on that advice.

If you never doubted that you were good enough to be "on the team", you must have very conceited.

[Hope]

Jesus seems to take the stance that his Father was going to create a new kingdom here on the earth which was only going to be populated with beings of Jesus' choosing.

Paul understanding is that it doesn't matter if the body has turned into dust. Your body will still rise in the guise of how it is before death. Think Star Wars and the ending of episode VI.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGPTrRueZXY

Thrud, nowhere in the New Testament is there a suggestion that God was "going to create a new kingdom here on the earth which was only going to be populated with beings of Jesus' choosing".  There are, however, a number of references to his creating the Kingdom of Heaven here on earth that would be populated by those who choose him.

As for "Your body will still rise in the guise of how it is before death", how does that fit with Jesus's teaching that there will be no pain in heaven, or sickness or any of the other very earthly conditions that inflict humanity.

[floo]

And what is 'going' to heaven all about, Len?  It seems to me that there are people here, like you, who seem to believe that it is a physical place that a human being may reach sometime after death.

So what do you think this place called heaven is like? It can only be an opinion of course as you have no evidence it exists.

[Hope]

If you never doubted that you were good enough to be "on the team", you must have very conceited.

And where did you get that idea from?  I can think of some people who's inclusion was never in doubt - and it didn't necessarily make them conceited.  Often it made them very humble.

[Hope]

So what do you think this place called heaven is like? It can only be an opinion of course as you have no evidence it exists.

Well, for me it isn't a place, its relationship.  Its being part of a family.

[floo]

And where did you get that idea from?  I can think of some people who's inclusion was never in doubt - and it didn't necessarily make them conceited.  Often it made them very humble.

In which case they could be in a shock if they discover the team leader has turned them down!

[Shaker]

Well, for me it isn't a place, its relationship.  Its being part of a family.

Don't you have a real one?

[ekim]

So Jesus never said it then... gotcha! 

Correct, just like all the other English/Latin/Greek words attributed to him in the Gospels.  All we can say is that the teachings exist and, if interested, try to fathom out what they mean.  As this is a Christian topic under discussion, it is probably better to associate them with Jesus rather than any other person, even though they might be the words of the Gospel writer based upon his understanding of what was being taught.

[Ricky Spanish]

And what is 'going' to heaven all about, Len?  It seems to me that there are people here, like you, who seem to believe that it is a physical place that a human being may reach sometime after death.

Heaven is exotic to Jesus and Paul..  they are both expecting the new kingdom to be here on Earth..

[Leonard James]

And where did you get that idea from?  I can think of some people who's inclusion was never in doubt - and it didn't necessarily make them conceited.  Often it made them very humble.

No matter what you say, Hope, the Christian belief is that if you don't live according to his rules, "God" will not grant you eternal life in his company.

I am weary of this exchange, which will go nowhere, so I'll opt out ... even though I know I will be accused of "running away". 

[jeremyp]

For me it was more like what happens when one is reasonable at sport and want to get into a team.  One doesn't just rest on one's laurels, one works hard to ensure that one reaches the level required.  Sometimes that will be by listening to the advice of coaches and others in the sport, sometimes its by hard work based on that advice.

At school our RE teacher said eternal life was God's gift to us, but now you are telling me that you have to train and go through selection trials to get it.

Will you Christians pleas make up your minds about what your religion actually teaches.

[Ricky Spanish]

And what is 'going' to heaven all about, Len?  It seems to me that there are people here, like you, who seem to believe that it is a physical place that a human being may reach sometime after death.

Again Hope it has to be pointed out that Jesus didn't expect a heaven above..  he was expecting a new kingdom here on Earth... that according to Paul was exclusive to those who believed in the Christ.