Author Topic: Resurrection  (Read 24656 times)

Sassy

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Re: Resurrection
« Reply #125 on: February 25, 2016, 10:26:56 AM »
Ahhh but the afterlife that Jesus preached, and Paul for that matter, was not about a heaven. Jesus seems to take the stance that his Father was going to create a new kingdom here on the earth which was only going to be populated with beings of Jesus' choosing.

Paul understanding is that it doesn't matter if the body has turned into dust. Your body will still rise in the guise of how it is before death. Think Star Wars and the ending of episode VI.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGPTrRueZXY

Do you ever think you are wrong B?
Quote
King James Bible
Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

On the cross.
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King James Bible
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

The Kingdom of Heaven is within us.
Quote

King James Bible
Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

The Kingdom of God is within the believer not a worldly thing at all.

Quote
King James Bible
If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

So where do we go from here. Everything you said disproved in the words of Christ himself.
What do you really seek answers to? You appear weary and disgruntled with the whole thing. Never really reaching satisfactory answers. But Christ said:-
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King James Bible
Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

The truth of the answers you want won't come as the truth you seek. You are trying to disprove all Christ has said to yourself.
Jesus is the Master NOT Paul. It is the Words of Christ whom God says we are to obey.
You won't find answers you seek only the the true answers Christ gives.

When you accept Christ, B, then you will receive the truth and rest.

We know we have to work together to abolish war and terrorism to create a compassionate  world in which Justice and peace prevail. Love ;D   Einstein
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floo

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Re: Resurrection
« Reply #126 on: February 25, 2016, 10:27:47 AM »
More meaningless assertions from Sass! ::)

Hope

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Re: Resurrection
« Reply #127 on: February 25, 2016, 10:34:42 AM »
More meaningless assertions from Sass! ::)
No more meaningless than your assertion here, Floo  ;)  Is this an 'argumentum ad non-sensus' fallacy?   ;)
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floo

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Re: Resurrection
« Reply #128 on: February 25, 2016, 11:35:57 AM »
No more meaningless than your assertion here, Floo  ;)  Is this an 'argumentum ad non-sensus' fallacy?   ;)

Stating things as a fact, without evidence to support them, as Sass does is meaningless.

Brownie

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Re: Resurrection
« Reply #129 on: February 25, 2016, 12:05:11 PM »
You are always singling out Sassy, floo, yet there are plenty of other posters with whom you disagree - or whom you might say were ''just as bad'', who you do not call out by name, or pounce on.  Why?  It's very noticeable.  If you don't 'like' someone (& how anyone can truly like or dislike a person they've never met), ignore them.  If you cannot do that at least treat them the same as everyone else.

Sorry folks for going off topic.  I have noticed the above since being back on the forum and have nothing against the above poster personally, nor anyone else.  It was important, to me, to say what I said, not everyone will think I'm right to have said it.

Regarding the Resurrection, I do believe in the bodily resurrection of Christ and always have.  I understand why people don't and that doesn't bother me in the least.  Faith is a gift.

Hugh, I was a fan of the ''Thorn Birds'' too!  I devoured the book and loved the TV film - can't remember now whether it was a series or a longer, one off film.  Richard Chamberlain was gorgeous in it, beautiful shoulders.   A lovely story, very romantic.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2016, 12:10:58 PM by Brownie »
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Sassy

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Re: Resurrection
« Reply #130 on: February 28, 2016, 12:55:17 AM »
You are always singling out Sassy, floo, yet there are plenty of other posters with whom you disagree - or whom you might say were ''just as bad'', who you do not call out by name, or pounce on.  Why?  It's very noticeable.  If you don't 'like' someone (& how anyone can truly like or dislike a person they've never met), ignore them.  If you cannot do that at least treat them the same as everyone else.

Sorry folks for going off topic.  I have noticed the above since being back on the forum and have nothing against the above poster personally, nor anyone else.  It was important, to me, to say what I said, not everyone will think I'm right to have said it.

Regarding the Resurrection, I do believe in the bodily resurrection of Christ and always have.  I understand why people don't and that doesn't bother me in the least.  Faith is a gift.

Hugh, I was a fan of the ''Thorn Birds'' too!  I devoured the book and loved the TV film - can't remember now whether it was a series or a longer, one off film.  Richard Chamberlain was gorgeous in it, beautiful shoulders.   A lovely story, very romantic.

Series... and not quite the same as the first time it was shown... :D
We know we have to work together to abolish war and terrorism to create a compassionate  world in which Justice and peace prevail. Love ;D   Einstein
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Ricky Spanish

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Re: Resurrection
« Reply #131 on: March 06, 2016, 08:33:59 AM »
The Resurrection in Paul

"I have been discussing an apocalyptic understanding of Jesus’ resurrection.  For the earliest followers of Jesus, coming to think that Jesus was raised from the dead provided both a confirmation and an elaboration of their understanding of the end times.  Prior to Jesus’ death, they had come to think that they were living at the end of the age and that God was soon to bring history to a climactic end through a cataclysmic act of judgment; this final event in history would involve a resurrection of all those who had died to face judgment.  When these disciples came to think that Jesus himself had been raised, they naturally concluded that the resurrection had begun.  Jesus was the first to rise; he had been exalted to heaven; he himself was to return to earth as the powerful Son of Man to raise all people from the dead.  All this would happen very soon.

As it turns out there were other apocalyptic lessons that could be drawn from Jesus’ resurrection.  One of the most interesting – and, oddly enough, least generally known – is one that comes to us from the writings of the apostle Paul.  Most readers of the New Testament know that the resurrection of Jesus was inordinately important for Paul.  But few (in my experience, at least) understand why the resurrection was so central to Paul’s understanding of salvation.

Paul was a die-hard apocalypticist, but he was a very different kind of thinker than the original disciples of Jesus.  They were all lower-class, uneducated, Aramaic-speaking peasants from rural Galilee.  He was a highly educated, literate, Greek-speaking Jew from the Diaspora.  It’s true that he almost certainly did not have the highest level of education available in the Roman empire – he was not a great philosopher or one of the elite literati trained in advanced rhetoric – but by comparison with virtually all the other Christians of his day, he was in the top 1%.  As a result, as you might suspect, his views and understandings of things were much more sophisticated than those of Jesus’ Galilean followers.

Paul’s apocalyptic views are complicated and not easy to explain – especially in a short blog post (the views I’m summarizing here can be seen in Paul’s letter to the Romans, especially chp. 5-8).   For one thing, his views were more cosmic and all-embracing than we would find among other early Christians.  For him, the forces that are aligned against God are not simply embodiments of evil such as demons and the Devil.  They are great powers that hold sway over the world, including the powers of sin and death.

Sin, for Paul, was not simply an act of transgression, an action that was opposed to the will of God.  It was that, for sure; but Paul had a view of sin that was much bigger and all-encompassing.  Sin for Paul was also a kind of demonic power that existed in the world, a force that was trying to enslave people and make them do what was contrary both to their own will and contrary to the will of God.   Sin came into the world with the transgression of Adam, and it dominated the human race.  Everyone was enslaved to sin, which is why people were alienated from God.  This did not simply mean that everyone did things that were wrong.   It meant that they were helpless to do otherwise because they were under the power of an alien force opposed to God.

So too with the power of death.  Death, for Paul, was not simply something that happened to people at the end of their lives, when they stopped breathing.  It certainly was that, but it was, again, also much bigger and powerful and cosmic.  Death for Paul was an alien force that was opposed to God and all he stood for.  It was a power that – like sin – was trying to enslave people.  When death captured a person, it annihilated her, destroying her existence.

The powers of sin and death were closely related.  Being enslaved to sin led to being conquered by death.   This was a hopeless situation for humans since these were cosmic forces far more powerful than any man or woman could withstand.   And there was nothing that could be done about it.  Because we are humans, we are enslaved to sin and will be conquered by death.

That’s where Jesus comes in.   Humans have to be delivered from the powers of sin and death, but they are powerless to deliver themselves.  Someone (else) needs to conquer these powers and provide the benefits of this conquest to others  Jesus did that.

For Paul, the resurrection of Jesus showed beyond all doubt that he conquered the power of death.  Death could not keep Jesus in its grip.  He was more powerful than death and defeated it.  Moreover, since he conquered this, the ultimate and greatest power, he had obviously conquered the other powers aligned against God as well, including the power of sin.   For Paul, Jesus defeated sin by his death: he took sin upon himself (even though he did not deserve it) and nailed it to his cross.  In him, sin was defeated, at the crucifixion, just as death was defeated at the resurrection.

If all this had been done by Jesus, it would show why *he* had escaped sin and death.  But how can others participate in this victory?  Here especially is where Paul’s theology is not widely known, but he lays it out in Romans 6 (esp. vv. 1-6).   The reason followers of Jesus have also escaped the powers of sin and death is because they have been … baptized.

When a person becomes a follower of Jesus and undergoes the ritual of baptism, for Paul, something actually happens.  The person goes under the water, just as Jesus at his burial went underground.  “We have been buried with him in baptism.”  For Paul, at this moment in the baptism ritual, the believer is “united with Christ,” so that the victories that Christ experienced are shared by the believer.   The believer too, then, has participated in the victory over sin and death.  The person is then, and only then, freed from the power of sin and placed under a different power, the power of righteousness.  Moreover, the person is freed from the power of death and will now have eternal life.

The resurrection of Jesus, then, had enormous apocalyptic consequences for Paul.  It represented the defeat of the cosmic forces aligned against God, and it made it possible for people to escape the powers that have enslaved this world in order to be transferred into the realm of God, to live forever more apart from the forces of sin and death."

http://ehrmanblog.org/the-resurrection-in-paul/
UNDERSTAND - I MAKE OPINIONS. IF YOUR ARGUMENTS MAKE ME QUESTION MY OPINION THEN I WILL CONSIDER THEM.

Sassy

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Re: Resurrection
« Reply #132 on: March 06, 2016, 01:11:35 PM »
The Resurrection in Paul

"I have been discussing an apocalyptic understanding of Jesus’ resurrection.  For the earliest followers of Jesus, coming to think that Jesus was raised from the dead provided both a confirmation and an elaboration of their understanding of the end times.  Prior to Jesus’ death, they had come to think that they were living at the end of the age and that God was soon to bring history to a climactic end through a cataclysmic act of judgment; this final event in history would involve a resurrection of all those who had died to face judgment.  When these disciples came to think that Jesus himself had been raised, they naturally concluded that the resurrection had begun.  Jesus was the first to rise; he had been exalted to heaven; he himself was to return to earth as the powerful Son of Man to raise all people from the dead.  All this would happen very soon.

I disagree. Christ made it quite clear no one but the Father knew the day and hour of his return.
Therefore there was no way anyone and that included Paul, could think it would happen soon.


Quote
As it turns out there were other apocalyptic lessons that could be drawn from Jesus’ resurrection.  One of the most interesting – and, oddly enough, least generally known – is one that comes to us from the writings of the apostle Paul.  Most readers of the New Testament know that the resurrection of Jesus was inordinately important for Paul.  But few (in my experience, at least) understand why the resurrection was so central to Paul’s understanding of salvation.

Would that have anything to do with the him being a Pharisee and so believing already in the resurrection, angels and spirits?


Quote
Paul was a die-hard apocalypticist, but he was a very different kind of thinker than the original disciples of Jesus.  They were all lower-class, uneducated, Aramaic-speaking peasants from rural Galilee.  He was a highly educated, literate, Greek-speaking Jew from the Diaspora.  It’s true that he almost certainly did not have the highest level of education available in the Roman empire – he was not a great philosopher or one of the elite literati trained in advanced rhetoric – but by comparison with virtually all the other Christians of his day, he was in the top 1%.  As a result, as you might suspect, his views and understandings of things were much more sophisticated than those of Jesus’ Galilean followers.

A dramatic generalisation... What were Moses, Abraham. Isaiah, Jeremiah etc? Who received the teachings of Christ and the Spirit first. The disciples the lower-class, uneducated and Aramaic-speaking peasants? Really... Wasn't Luke a doctor?
I am not sure what point you hoped to establish but it is of very little value in generalisation of making Paul look greater than the Apostles when he simply was not. True faith has always been established in Spirit and truth. No posh education for the Prophets. In fact in Christ all were equal because of one Lord, One Spirit and one Truth.

Quote
Paul’s apocalyptic views are complicated and not easy to explain – especially in a short blog post (the views I’m summarizing here can be seen in Paul’s letter to the Romans, especially chp. 5-8).   For one thing, his views were more cosmic and all-embracing than we would find among other early Christians.  For him, the forces that are aligned against God are not simply embodiments of evil such as demons and the Devil.  They are great powers that hold sway over the world, including the powers of sin and death.

Which forces would overcome God?

I can see nothing of any use in the above would you please explain.



Quote
Sin, for Paul, was not simply an act of transgression, an action that was opposed to the will of God.  It was that, for sure; but Paul had a view of sin that was much bigger and all-encompassing.  Sin for Paul was also a kind of demonic power that existed in the world, a force that was trying to enslave people and make them do what was contrary both to their own will and contrary to the will of God.   Sin came into the world with the transgression of Adam, and it dominated the human race.  Everyone was enslaved to sin, which is why people were alienated from God.  This did not simply mean that everyone did things that were wrong.   It meant that they were helpless to do otherwise because they were under the power of an alien force opposed to God.


Did you see that in the temptation of Christ having been starved and without water for 40 days and night?

Christ is the way to God and the Spirit empowers the believers to stop sinning.
Did you gain that from reading Pauls letters?
Quote
So too with the power of death.  Death, for Paul, was not simply something that happened to people at the end of their lives, when they stopped breathing.  It certainly was that, but it was, again, also much bigger and powerful and cosmic.  Death for Paul was an alien force that was opposed to God and all he stood for.  It was a power that – like sin – was trying to enslave people.  When death captured a person, it annihilated her, destroying her existence.

Death of body and soul? Christ said fear not those who kill the body, but rather fear God who has the power to throw both body and soul into hell. Death was not something God wanted for mankind. So Christians fall asleep rather than die.
Because the final thing to be destroyed is death,, Wherefore death is thy sting...
No more death, no more weeping or suffering....
Quote
The powers of sin and death were closely related.  Being enslaved to sin led to being conquered by death.   This was a hopeless situation for humans since these were cosmic forces far more powerful than any man or woman could withstand.   And there was nothing that could be done about it.  Because we are humans, we are enslaved to sin and will be conquered by death.
Men and women sin. Are they forced to sin? Who will save me from this body and I guess you are thinking of this...

King James Bible
O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Quote
That’s where Jesus comes in.   Humans have to be delivered from the powers of sin and death, but they are powerless to deliver themselves.  Someone (else) needs to conquer these powers and provide the benefits of this conquest to others  Jesus did that.

For Paul, the resurrection of Jesus showed beyond all doubt that he conquered the power of death.  Death could not keep Jesus in its grip.  He was more powerful than death and defeated it.  Moreover, since he conquered this, the ultimate and greatest power, he had obviously conquered the other powers aligned against God as well, including the power of sin.   For Paul, Jesus defeated sin by his death: he took sin upon himself (even though he did not deserve it) and nailed it to his cross.  In him, sin was defeated, at the crucifixion, just as death was defeated at the resurrection.

If all this had been done by Jesus, it would show why *he* had escaped sin and death.  But how can others participate in this victory?  Here especially is where Paul’s theology is not widely known, but he lays it out in Romans 6 (esp. vv. 1-6).   The reason followers of Jesus have also escaped the powers of sin and death is because they have been … baptized.

When a person becomes a follower of Jesus and undergoes the ritual of baptism, for Paul, something actually happens.  The person goes under the water, just as Jesus at his burial went underground.  “We have been buried with him in baptism.”  For Paul, at this moment in the baptism ritual, the believer is “united with Christ,” so that the victories that Christ experienced are shared by the believer.   The believer too, then, has participated in the victory over sin and death.  The person is then, and only then, freed from the power of sin and placed under a different power, the power of righteousness.  Moreover, the person is freed from the power of death and will now have eternal life.

The resurrection of Jesus, then, had enormous apocalyptic consequences for Paul.  It represented the defeat of the cosmic forces aligned against God, and it made it possible for people to escape the powers that have enslaved this world in order to be transferred into the realm of God, to live forever more apart from the forces of sin and death."

http://ehrmanblog.org/the-resurrection-in-paul/

When a person receive baptism of the Holy Spirit they live according to the Spirit. But the body itself is transformed after death at the resurrection.
We know we have to work together to abolish war and terrorism to create a compassionate  world in which Justice and peace prevail. Love ;D   Einstein
 "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

Ricky Spanish

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Re: Resurrection
« Reply #133 on: March 07, 2016, 10:39:29 AM »
1: I disagree. Christ made it quite clear no one but the Father knew the day and hour of his return.
Therefore there was no way anyone and that included Paul, could think it would happen soon.


2: Would that have anything to do with the him being a Pharisee and so believing already in the resurrection, angels and spirits?


3: A dramatic generalisation... What were Moses, Abraham. Isaiah, Jeremiah etc? Who received the teachings of Christ and the Spirit first. The disciples the lower-class, uneducated and Aramaic-speaking peasants? Really... Wasn't Luke a doctor?
I am not sure what point you hoped to establish but it is of very little value in generalisation of making Paul look greater than the Apostles when he simply was not. True faith has always been established in Spirit and truth. No posh education for the Prophets. In fact in Christ all were equal because of one Lord, One Spirit and one Truth.

4: Which forces would overcome God?

I can see nothing of any use in the above would you please explain.




5: Did you see that in the temptation of Christ having been starved and without water for 40 days and night?

Christ is the way to God and the Spirit empowers the believers to stop sinning.
Did you gain that from reading Pauls letters?

6: Death of body and soul? Christ said fear not those who kill the body, but rather fear God who has the power to throw both body and soul into hell. Death was not something God wanted for mankind. So Christians fall asleep rather than die.
Because the final thing to be destroyed is death,, Wherefore death is thy sting...
No more death, no more weeping or suffering....Men and women sin. Are they forced to sin? Who will save me from this body and I guess you are thinking of this...

7: King James Bible
O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.


8: When a person receive baptism of the Holy Spirit they live according to the Spirit. But the body itself is transformed after death at the resurrection.

1: Jesus exclaimed many times that the Kingdom of God was near/close. (Mark 1:15. Matt 4:17. Matt 3:2 Matt 10:7 Matt 12:28. Matt. 5:20; 7:21.) Even Paul exclaimed that the Kingdom was near, in fact the term "Kingdom of God" occurs several times in Matthew (12:28; 19:24; 21:31; 21:43), many times in Mark, even more times in Luke, a couple in the Gospel of John (3:3, 5), several times in Acts and in Paul letters, and once in Revelation (12:10). Matthew actually prefers the term "Kingdom of heaven" which he uses more in his gospel.

I know how I interpret this Kingdom of God/heaven and have a clear picture of how Jesus as a Jew would understand it.

Do you?

2. 3,4, 5, 6 and 7: Obviously your understanding of Pauls teaching is shockingly limited. As well as who Jesus' disciples were. Luke was never one of the 12, yes they were all uneducated peasants, even Matthew the tax collector/bailiff.

Paul was an educated Greco-Roman Jew from Turkey which obviously had an influence on his interpretation of what he had heard about this Christ.

If you read his letters you can also see that he was expecting this Kingdom to appear in his lifetime as Jesus taught.

8: That is just your interpretation, doesn't mean it is the righteous one!

« Last Edit: March 07, 2016, 10:41:48 AM by Thrud the Barbarian »
UNDERSTAND - I MAKE OPINIONS. IF YOUR ARGUMENTS MAKE ME QUESTION MY OPINION THEN I WILL CONSIDER THEM.

Sassy

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Re: Resurrection
« Reply #134 on: March 07, 2016, 11:08:25 AM »
1: Jesus exclaimed many times that the Kingdom of God was near/close. (Mark 1:15. Matt 4:17. Matt 3:2 Matt 10:7 Matt 12:28. Matt. 5:20; 7:21.) Even Paul exclaimed that the Kingdom was near, in fact the term "Kingdom of God" occurs several times in Matthew (12:28; 19:24; 21:31; 21:43), many times in Mark, even more times in Luke, a couple in the Gospel of John (3:3, 5), several times in Acts and in Paul letters, and once in Revelation (12:10). Matthew actually prefers the term "Kingdom of heaven" which he uses more in his gospel.

I know how I interpret this Kingdom of God/heaven and have a clear picture of how Jesus as a Jew would understand it.

Do you?

Your confusing the kingdom of God within the person arriving and the return of Christ to collect the people of his kingdom.
Christ taught the kingdom of God within a person. You cannot go seek it here or there. We know the true kingdom of God are those born of the Spirit and Truth. The disciples in acts 2 receive the Holy Spirit.

The Kingdom of God is not heaven. But all who believe in Christ and are born of the Holy Spirit are part of Gods Kingdom.
Remember Christ told us... " My Kingdom is not of this world" he also said " The kingdom of God is within you."
If Christ did not go away the Spirit could not come unto us and therefore the Kingdom of God established within the persons who believe. The return of Christ is something completely different when Christ takes his people unto himself. That day and hour his return not expected as it was not known.

Quote
2. 3,4, 5, 6 and 7: Obviously your understanding of Pauls teaching is shockingly limited. As well as who Jesus' disciples were. Luke was never one of the 12, yes they were all uneducated peasants, even Matthew the tax collector/bailiff.

Again, you fail to understand that no one who is born of the Spirit is uneducated in the word and truth of God.
Christ reminded the disciples before he left... John 14:26.
26But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
So you confuse worldly wisdom with the wisdom of God which was imparted to all men including the Prophets by the Holy Spirit. So these men were better educated because they had the Holy Spirit who taught them everything.

Quote
Paul was an educated Greco-Roman Jew from Turkey which obviously had an influence on his interpretation of what he had heard about this Christ.

Yet for all his education he did not recognise the Messiah from what he had learned? But Peter the simple fishermen who like all Jews knew the scriptures off by heart as commanded by God through Moses did recognise the Messiah.
Do you not see the error in that you are making comparison by worldly wisdom of scholars and not the wisdom of God through his own words and teachings?
Had Christ not revealed himself to Saul/Paul on the road to Damascus would he have ever been able to know Christ as the Messiah without that personal revelation and conversion?
Quote
If you read his letters you can also see that he was expecting this Kingdom to appear in his lifetime as Jesus taught.

8: That is just your interpretation, doesn't mean it is the righteous one!
As you can see the interpretation of what Christ said and taught shows Paul did not expect him to return in his lifetime. Simply that he was to live as if he would return any day because no one knew the hour or the day but God.
I believe the bible has clearly met all the points you raised.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2016, 11:11:15 AM by Sassy »
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ippy

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Re: Resurrection
« Reply #135 on: March 07, 2016, 11:49:31 AM »
Your confusing the kingdom of God within the person arriving and the return of Christ to collect the people of his kingdom.
Christ taught the kingdom of God within a person. You cannot go seek it here or there. We know the true kingdom of God are those born of the Spirit and Truth. The disciples in acts 2 receive the Holy Spirit.

The Kingdom of God is not heaven. But all who believe in Christ and are born of the Holy Spirit are part of Gods Kingdom.
Remember Christ told us... " My Kingdom is not of this world" he also said " The kingdom of God is within you."
If Christ did not go away the Spirit could not come unto us and therefore the Kingdom of God established within the persons who believe. The return of Christ is something completely different when Christ takes his people unto himself. That day and hour his return not expected as it was not known.

Again, you fail to understand that no one who is born of the Spirit is uneducated in the word and truth of God.
Christ reminded the disciples before he left... John 14:26.
26But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
So you confuse worldly wisdom with the wisdom of God which was imparted to all men including the Prophets by the Holy Spirit. So these men were better educated because they had the Holy Spirit who taught them everything.

Yet for all his education he did not recognise the Messiah from what he had learned? But Peter the simple fishermen who like all Jews knew the scriptures off by heart as commanded by God through Moses did recognise the Messiah.
Do you not see the error in that you are making comparison by worldly wisdom of scholars and not the wisdom of God through his own words and teachings?
Had Christ not revealed himself to Saul/Paul on the road to Damascus would he have ever been able to know Christ as the Messiah without that personal revelation and conversion? As you can see the interpretation of what Christ said and taught shows Paul did not expect him to return in his lifetime. Simply that he was to live as if he would return any day because no one knew the hour or the day but God.
I believe the bible has clearly met all the points you raised.

Nothing like rearranging the deckchairs on the Titanic type discussions Sass.

ippy 

Sassy

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Re: Resurrection
« Reply #136 on: March 10, 2016, 12:01:03 AM »
Nothing like rearranging the deckchairs on the Titanic type discussions Sass.

ippy

Better than leaving the iceberg in charge of the Titanic in the first instance.....
We know we have to work together to abolish war and terrorism to create a compassionate  world in which Justice and peace prevail. Love ;D   Einstein
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Hope

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Re: Resurrection
« Reply #137 on: March 10, 2016, 04:13:09 PM »
The Resurrection in Paul
Thrud, I'd advise you to take what Ehrman says on anything to do with the Bible with a sizeable pinch of salt.  I often enjoy reading his stuff - but on an enjoyment par with reading Michael Bond's 'Paddington' stories.
Are your, or your friends'/relatives', garages, lofts or sheds full of unused DIY gear, sewing/knitting machines or fabric and haberdashery stuff?

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Dicky Underpants

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Re: Resurrection
« Reply #138 on: March 10, 2016, 04:50:45 PM »
Thrud, I'd advise you to take what Ehrman says on anything to do with the Bible with a sizeable pinch of salt.  I often enjoy reading his stuff - but on an enjoyment par with reading Michael Bond's 'Paddington' stories.

I'd like to see the two of you in a televised debate. I imagine your fundament being truly bored, screwed, and countersunk. Not that you would notice, though. You have truly been gifted with a 'miraculous' capacity for stubbornness. I'm sure others could think of other more apposite euphemisms.
"Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous.”

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Leonard James

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Re: Resurrection
« Reply #139 on: March 10, 2016, 08:08:31 PM »
I'm sure others could think of other more apposite euphemisms.

Easily programmed organisms?

Hope

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Re: Resurrection
« Reply #140 on: March 10, 2016, 10:39:15 PM »
I'd like to see the two of you in a televised debate. I imagine your fundament being truly bored, screwed, and countersunk. Not that you would notice, though. You have truly been gifted with a 'miraculous' capacity for stubbornness. I'm sure others could think of other more apposite euphemisms.
You're entitled to your opinions, DU.  Mind you, you're rather better informed than Farmer Thrud seems to have been in the years I've known him.
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Hope

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Re: Resurrection
« Reply #141 on: March 10, 2016, 10:41:06 PM »
Easily programmed organisms?
Len, currently, pretty well none of my organisms are allowing themselves to be programmed - they are in outright rebellion.  Hopefully some blood tests tomorrow will give some indication of why!!
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Leonard James

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Re: Resurrection
« Reply #142 on: March 11, 2016, 08:13:07 AM »
Len, currently, pretty well none of my organisms are allowing themselves to be programmed - they are in outright rebellion.  Hopefully some blood tests tomorrow will give some indication of why!!

I hope so, Hope. But I think you know that my remark was directed at the programming of the brain by religious rubbish.

Dicky Underpants

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Re: Resurrection
« Reply #143 on: March 12, 2016, 04:24:26 PM »
You're entitled to your opinions, DU.  Mind you, you're rather better informed than Farmer Thrud seems to have been in the years I've known him.

Your dismissive comment regarding a distinguished biblical scholar was inappropriate. I may take some of his views with a pinch of salt, but Ehrman was important for me in re-reading the work of Schweitzer (whose influence Ehrman acknowledges). Perhaps you regard the work and magnificent inspirational life of Albert Schweitzer as also being on a level with the Paddington Bear books?
"Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous.”

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Brownie

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Re: Resurrection
« Reply #144 on: March 12, 2016, 04:30:17 PM »
Hello Norty Knickers, I too devoured some of Ehrman's writings some years ago and have great respect for him as a scholar.  I like people prepared to think outside the box.
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Dicky Underpants

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Re: Resurrection
« Reply #145 on: March 12, 2016, 04:36:29 PM »
Hello Norty Knickers, I too devoured some of Ehrman's writings some years ago and have great respect for him as a scholar.  I like people prepared to think outside the box.

Very glad to hear it. By the way, from what I've read of your posts here, you're a credit to your faith.
"Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous.”

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Brownie

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Re: Resurrection
« Reply #146 on: March 12, 2016, 05:37:52 PM »
Thanks, I'm not really  :-[.  Anyway we've met before Richard, in other places.  Can't remember which.  I didn't use the name ''Brownie'' elsewhere, I was Victoria Plum. I was LyndaB on here but had a long break, came back last May and couldn't log in without changing my name - hence 'Brown' - 'Brownie'.  Yet if I do have to log in here, I still have to put LyndaB in as my username!  I cannot fathom it.  Never mind.  See you later.
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ippy

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Re: Resurrection
« Reply #147 on: March 12, 2016, 07:15:26 PM »
No more meaningless than your assertion here, Floo  ;)  Is this an 'argumentum ad non-sensus' fallacy?   ;)

Says the assertional expert on supplying assertions by the bucket load, but without, guess what?

ippy

Shaker

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Re: Resurrection
« Reply #148 on: March 12, 2016, 10:59:05 PM »
Thanks, I'm not really  :-[.  Anyway we've met before Richard, in other places.  Can't remember which.  I didn't use the name ''Brownie'' elsewhere, I was Victoria Plum.
Victoria Plum as in No Greater Love, St. Thads Victoria Plum???  :o
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Brownie

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Re: Resurrection
« Reply #149 on: March 12, 2016, 11:30:56 PM »
Bathroom fittings - one good reason to stop being Victoria Plum, I was fed up with seeing my nickname on the TV adverts.  I thought you knew me Mr Shaker!  You left out Premier (the old forum and the latest one, both now closed), and the BBC R&E forum which is where I started on forums.  Great days they were.  This forum is pretty good though, lively and diverse.
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