Author Topic: Religious advertising  (Read 14651 times)

jeremyp

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Re: Religious advertising
« Reply #75 on: February 21, 2016, 03:47:29 PM »
Wrong, there are people who have been given copies of their medical records that show healing that has  had nothing to do with medical intervention.
Three weeks ago I caught a virus and lo! I got better without medical intervention. It's a miracle.

(Or the body's own self repair mechanism).

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I appreciate that this kind of thing rarely gets into the news, if only because good news isn't newsworthy,
No, it doesn't get into the news because people getting better happens all the time. When it comes to bone fide miraculous cures, it turns out the evidence is zero.
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ippy

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Re: Religious advertising
« Reply #76 on: February 21, 2016, 07:39:41 PM »
Well, spontaneous healing can't be proven scientifically.  Its just a convenient way of getting around the paradox of a healing occurring which has no medical or scientific explanation.

You really are desperate Hope.

ippy

Hope

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Re: Religious advertising
« Reply #77 on: February 21, 2016, 08:37:05 PM »
You really are desperate Hope.

ippy
No more so than those who have to provide a totally unscientific explanation for the process.
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Hope

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Re: Religious advertising
« Reply #78 on: February 21, 2016, 08:38:40 PM »
Wouldn't you agree that no matter what phenomena science is yet incapable of explaining, filling in the gaps with one's deity(ies) of choice and associated myths which challenge the very laws of nature as we know them is a bad idea?
If it were filling in the gaps, yes I would; but as I don't believe that science is the answer to all our issues (nor ever will be), its a moot point in the first place, Khat.
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Hope

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Re: Religious advertising
« Reply #79 on: February 21, 2016, 08:44:09 PM »
Three weeks ago I caught a virus and lo! I got better without medical intervention. It's a miracle.
But no-one, let alone yourself, treats this as spontaneous healing.  The idea of SH is only ever invoked when someone who has been told that there is nothing else that medical science can do to help.  I'm afraid that your attempt at a straw man, and Gordon's references to "physical processes: your body already uses physical processes to 'heal' without medical intervention, such as when blood clots in cases of traumatic haemorrhage"are nothing more than that.
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Gordon

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Re: Religious advertising
« Reply #80 on: February 21, 2016, 10:19:48 PM »
The idea of SH is only ever invoked when someone who has been told that there is nothing else that medical science can do to help.

Which you seize upon as being a gap into which you can then insert your God, so we need to take into account who is bigging-up the spontaneous recovery as being potential divine intervention as opposed to the more rational 'not fully understood', and whether these claims are little more than anecdotes to start with.

Mrs G (now a community nurse until she retires next year) worked in hospital based oncology (particularly cancers of the neck/head/throat), and also cardiology, for a number of years so I just asked her about whether any of the professionally trained medical or nursing staff she had ever worked with over the years ever suspected divine intervention when someone did a little better than expected to the extent of seemingly recovering from a terminal/serious illness.

She says that even when some people did do a little better that their prognosis suggested, and here she says not many did, in these cases the prognosis is an estimate based on knowledge of the progress of the main condition and its treatment, where some remissions are a direct result of treatment, but as regards the gravelly/terminally ill there are often other secondary illness processes going and that if successfully treated, along with carefully managed pain control, can give the impression of a temporary improvement for a while.

However, she was quite clear that never once over many years was the idea of divine intervention ever raised by professionally trained staff in any formal case reviews as being a serious option, and went on to say that her view is that it would be unprofessional for trained staff to speculate in this way. She added that even colleagues who she knew were religious never ever went down the miracle route.

Mrs G also said that the reality is that those patients who are told (to use your turn of phrase) that 'there is nothing else that medical science can do to help' generally died in line with the estimate they were given, and that some died sooner due to the likes of infections or the effects or analgesia, and that even if professional medical and nursing staff might be surprised at the occasional unexpected resilience of some who are very gravelly ill they wouldn't speculate that divine intervention occurred and that generally speaking temporary improvements were exactly that - temporary.

Let's face it, if divine intervention was a real option we'd see some proper academic studies in peer-reviewed clinical publications confirming that there was empirical evidence that was best explained by a 'miracle' having happened - so, do you have any to hand?
 
« Last Edit: February 21, 2016, 10:22:14 PM by Gordon »

Khatru

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Re: Religious advertising
« Reply #81 on: February 21, 2016, 11:23:42 PM »
If it were filling in the gaps, yes I would; but as I don't believe that science is the answer to all our issues (nor ever will be), its a moot point in the first place, Khat.

You're not filling in the gaps?

So "God did it"  is not the answer to explain away what we don't yet know?
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ippy

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Re: Religious advertising
« Reply #82 on: February 22, 2016, 06:31:27 AM »
No more so than those who have to provide a totally unscientific explanation for the process.


I don't think you could have checked or read through this post of yours before you sent it?

ippy

Leonard James

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Re: Religious advertising
« Reply #83 on: February 22, 2016, 06:44:42 AM »

I don't think you could have checked or read through this post of yours before you sent it?

ippy

Both Hope and Sass are so eager to spout their nonsense that they are at times unintelligible.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Religious advertising
« Reply #84 on: February 22, 2016, 07:41:32 AM »
But no-one, let alone yourself, treats this as spontaneous healing.  The idea of SH is only ever invoked when someone who has been told that there is nothing else that medical science can do to help.  I'm afraid that your attempt at a straw man, and Gordon's references to "physical processes: your body already uses physical processes to 'heal' without medical intervention, such as when blood clots in cases of traumatic haemorrhage"are nothing more than that.
And the body also possesses the mechanisms to deal with all sorts of other damage and disease processes. And in many, if not most cases, the point of therapeutic intervention is to support that natural healing process in some manner, where otherwise it is usually inadequate to deal with the disease.

And the key word here is usually - spontaneous healing events are rare but not so rare as to not be explainable as one end of a spectrum of natural healing ability within the body, and indeed in some cases seem to be associated with some secondary infection which will have a major effect on the action of the immune system. In other cases apoptosis (another well known physiological process) appears to be involved.

Do we know everything about its mechanisms in every case - well of course not - but it does not sit outside of normal physiological mechanisms. To attribute spontaneous healing to 'god of the gaps' or even more ludicrously to prayer is, frankly, non-sense and bonkers.

SusanDoris

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Re: Religious advertising
« Reply #85 on: February 22, 2016, 07:43:38 AM »
Obviously the Croydon Guardian do not feel strongly enough about it so as not to take the money. Ask them not to deliver to you.
I used to keep the phone number of the distributor of a free paper because I had to keep phoning them  to insist that I did not want it.


I see that I'm pages behind on this - sorry!!
« Last Edit: February 22, 2016, 07:51:22 AM by SusanDoris »
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jeremyp

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Re: Religious advertising
« Reply #86 on: February 22, 2016, 01:09:39 PM »
But no-one, let alone yourself, treats this as spontaneous healing.
Yes they do: I just did.

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The idea of SH is only ever invoked when someone who has been told that there is nothing else that medical science can do to help.
The body is capable of healing a lot of diseases that medical science can't cure. The common cold is the obvious example.

I'd be really surprised if you could produce verifiable evidence of anybody spontaneously recovering from any disease that has a 0% recovery rate. Nobody, for instance, has ever spontaneously regrown a lost limb.

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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Religious advertising
« Reply #87 on: February 22, 2016, 01:29:03 PM »
Yes they do: I just did.
The body is capable of healing a lot of diseases that medical science can't cure. The common cold is the obvious example.

I'd be really surprised if you could produce verifiable evidence of anybody spontaneously recovering from any disease that has a 0% recovery rate. Nobody, for instance, has ever spontaneously regrown a lost limb.
That's correct - the basic physiology of the human body does 'spontaneous healing' all the time. Cut yourself and what happens - that wound is healed through natural physiological processes. Break your leg, and the same will happen. And the body also deals with many disease processes, by getting rid of pathogens and tissue damaged through disease of other means and replacing it with functioning tissue.

Now this does work perfectly in all cases, and of course one of the main things medical intervention does is to support and augment natural healing - why do you wear a cast if you break your leg - to help the natural healing process to occur. Why do you take antibiotics - to knock out a large proportion of bacterial pathogens allowing the body to be better able to deal with the rest etc etc.

ippy

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Re: Religious advertising
« Reply #88 on: February 23, 2016, 12:11:17 AM »
But no-one, let alone yourself, treats this as spontaneous healing.  The idea of SH is only ever invoked when someone who has been told that there is nothing else that medical science can do to help.  I'm afraid that your attempt at a straw man, and Gordon's references to "physical processes: your body already uses physical processes to 'heal' without medical intervention, such as when blood clots in cases of traumatic haemorrhage"are nothing more than that.

I haven't looked on wikki but I'll assume there will be something there about interferon, give it a lookand see Hope.

As far as I know this has been known about for at least thirty to fourty years, last I can rember about it is, that it's very expensive and there is nothing magic about it.

ippy