Author Topic: Pantheism  (Read 36233 times)

Shaker

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Re: Pantheism
« Reply #150 on: February 21, 2016, 11:03:34 AM »
Pantheism means that all are/is God.
Well well well - you seem to be getting somewhere at last.
Quote
That you and I are divine
Well, I certainly am - I make no comment on you.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Pantheism
« Reply #151 on: February 21, 2016, 11:07:15 AM »
No you're not - if you were, you would understand the concept, and it's painfully and increasingly tediously obvious that you don't. He never said it is and nor have I. Watch what you're doing with all that straw.Or the evolution of language. I've no problem with mere naturalism whatever - that's your hang-up - but I have an emotional and aesthetic sense as well.
Evolution of language....bring that up again when black equals white and when yes equals no or indeed when atheism equals pantheism

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Pantheism
« Reply #152 on: February 21, 2016, 11:09:04 AM »
Well well well - you seem to be getting somewhere at last. Well, I certainly am - I make no comment on you.
Then you are not a pantheist........

............back of the net.

Shaker

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Re: Pantheism
« Reply #153 on: February 21, 2016, 11:09:40 AM »
Then you are not a pantheist........

............back of the net.
Still here then after lying twice about leaving, I see.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Pantheism
« Reply #154 on: February 21, 2016, 11:11:39 AM »
Still here then after lying twice about leaving, I see.
Great a non pantheist telling me to get off the pantheist thread.

Shaker

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Re: Pantheism
« Reply #155 on: February 21, 2016, 11:13:27 AM »
Great a non pantheist telling me to get off the pantheist thread.
Well, you clearly (a) don't seem to understand the concept, (b) have no interest in learning about said concept you don't understand, (c) post incomprehensible garbage such as "I take it the a pantheist has no difficulty with the concept of a trinity since they must believe in a trillion in one" and (d) have twice stated that you're leaving the thread and are still here (i.e. lied), so what exactly is it that you think you're doing here?

Others are capable of reading the OP if it takes their interest and of commenting on the subject at hand. You are not.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2016, 11:15:39 AM by Shaker »
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Pantheism
« Reply #156 on: February 21, 2016, 11:17:14 AM »
Well, you clearly (a) don't seem to understand the concept, (b) have no interest in learning about said concept you don't understand, (c) post incomprehensible garbage such as "I take it the a pantheist has no difficulty with the concept of a trinity since they must believe in a trillion in one" and (d) have twice stated that you're leaving the thread and are still here (i.e. lied), so what exactly is it that you think you're doing here?

Others are capable of reading the OP if it takes their interest and of commenting on the subject at hand. You are not.

Atheism is not any kind of theism Shaker end off.

Shaker

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Re: Pantheism
« Reply #157 on: February 21, 2016, 11:17:59 AM »
Atheism is not any kind of theism Shaker end off.
Well it must be atheism, surely, mustn't it?

You still here? Or have you ended off?
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Pantheism
« Reply #158 on: February 21, 2016, 11:19:11 AM »
Well it must be atheism, surely, mustn't it?

Eh?

Shaker

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Re: Pantheism
« Reply #159 on: February 21, 2016, 11:19:44 AM »
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Gonnagle

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Re: Pantheism
« Reply #160 on: February 21, 2016, 11:33:02 AM »
Dear Leonard,

Quote
OK Gonners, omit the word 'often'. The fact that we can be misled sometimes is sufficient to make us wary of relying too much on feelings.

Rely on them, well we do but you are right, we should be wary which is why I say we should explore them, scientifically, that first encounter, I think all the senses are in play, sight, smell, hearing, hell maybe even taste.

Our gut feelings are much more than just a feeling, we have talked many times about evolution, why man stands in awe of a beautiful sight in nature, it is much more than just somewhere to find food and shelter, am I wrong in thinking that man has lost the ability to use his senses to the maximum, early mans senses must have been tuned so finely to survive, more like an animal who uses all its senses to survive.

Dear Shaker and Vlad, ( you two love birds )

Yes, to touch the divine, we all seek that, if you read about any of the major religions it is all about touching God, wanting to be like God.

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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Pantheism
« Reply #161 on: February 21, 2016, 11:48:44 AM »
Dear Leonard,

Rely on them, well we do but you are right, we should be wary which is why I say we should explore them, scientifically, that first encounter, I think all the senses are in play, sight, smell, hearing, hell maybe even taste.

Our gut feelings are much more than just a feeling, we have talked many times about evolution, why man stands in awe of a beautiful sight in nature, it is much more than just somewhere to find food and shelter, am I wrong in thinking that man has lost the ability to use his senses to the maximum, early mans senses must have been tuned so finely to survive, more like an animal who uses all its senses to survive.

Dear Shaker and Vlad, ( you two love birds )

Yes, to touch the divine, we all seek that, if you read about any of the major religions it is all about touching God, wanting to be like God.

Gonnagle.
Mr G
Atheists on this board have trouble with one man being like God. What will they make of Shakers suggestion that all are like God?

Rhiannon

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Re: Pantheism
« Reply #162 on: February 21, 2016, 11:52:11 AM »
Stop lying, Vlad.

Shaker

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Re: Pantheism
« Reply #163 on: February 21, 2016, 11:55:54 AM »
I don't mind the lying so much as a lie can be refuted with the truth; it's the dull incomprehension shading into outright trolling which is a nuisance.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Pantheism
« Reply #164 on: February 21, 2016, 12:07:45 PM »
I don't mind the lying so much as a lie can be refuted with the truth; it's the dull incomprehension shading into outright trolling which is a nuisance.
That's right. Having lost the ball play the man.

Let's see how many questions Harrisonian pantheism answers once CPR is deprived.

Ciao.

Shaker

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Re: Pantheism
« Reply #165 on: February 21, 2016, 12:09:30 PM »
Third time lucky ...
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Leonard James

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Re: Pantheism
« Reply #166 on: February 21, 2016, 12:26:10 PM »
Dear Leonard,

Rely on them, well we do but you are right, we should be wary which is why I say we should explore them, scientifically, that first encounter, I think all the senses are in play, sight, smell, hearing, hell maybe even taste.

Yes, indeed! I think our most dangerous ability is imagination, or rather distinguishing it from reality. For example, attributing a sudden surge of well-being, wonder and completeness to a divinity, instead of recognising it as just our acute aesthetic sense responding to a particular stimulus, such as you describe here....

"Our gut feelings are much more than just a feeling, we have talked many times about evolution, why man stands in awe of a beautiful sight in nature, it is much more than just somewhere to find food and shelter..."

Quote
...am I wrong in thinking that man has lost the ability to use his senses to the maximum, early mans senses must have been tuned so finely to survive, more like an animal who uses all its senses to survive.

I think you are right in that we would probably not survive if we were suddenly returned to the primitive world of our forbears, but we have gained so much more in our refined aesthetic sense.


Bubbles

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Re: Pantheism
« Reply #167 on: February 22, 2016, 09:10:30 AM »
But scientists are not important for what they feel....as Leonard has said.

Then of course you criticise belief but how does Harrison know he is right....even if he were as I suspect merely a naturalist taking the piss out of pantheism?

Some of them are ( important for their emotions), and their imagination.

For those of us who are not mathematical geniuses  :-[ their expression of wonder and awe, give us some idea of what their research is about.

Just recently I visited and saw the big telescopes on the top of la Palma.

I didn't go inside, but I found out there was nothing to look through and see as that isn't how they do it, and their results are not something most of us understand.

They are not telescopes you can look through, their data is just that, data.

Apparently you need a masters degree in maths and astronomy to understand or make any sense of it.

Stephen Hawking has a telescope up there, to try and find out about black holes.

This is where it's important that the scientists use their imagination and emotion to explain it to the rest of us in terms we understand.

To share it, they need to make it something the rest of us understand. They do that by making visual representations and sharing their sense of awe.

Carl Sagan is one good example of someone who shared his awe, and his programmes were full of emotion.
Well in my opinion.

Without that, most of us wouldnt know anything at all.

Raw data is a bit dry, we need a bit of emotion with it.
 :)

« Last Edit: February 22, 2016, 09:15:49 AM by Rose »

Gonnagle

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Re: Pantheism
« Reply #168 on: February 22, 2016, 11:13:33 AM »
Dear Leonard,

Quote
Yes, indeed! I think our most dangerous ability is imagination, or rather distinguishing it from reality. For example, attributing a sudden surge of well-being, wonder and completeness to a divinity, instead of recognising it as just our acute aesthetic sense responding to a particular stimulus, such as you describe here....

But how do you know you are not touching the divine, this Pantheism stuff tells us

Quote
Pantheism is the belief that the Universe (or nature as the totality of everything) is identical with divinity, or that everything composes an all-encompassing, immanent god. Pantheists thus do not believe in a distinct personal or anthropomorphic god

Totality of everything, all encompassing immanent God, what you call "acute aesthetic sense" could be us knowing that we are part of everything, as the quote says "identical with divinity", I think this is something to reflect on, in this modern world with the "me me me" we should all remember that we are all part of the whole, we are all made from the same stuff and will go back to the same stuff.

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Gonnagle

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Re: Pantheism
« Reply #169 on: February 22, 2016, 11:26:30 AM »
Dear Rose,

Quote
This is where it's important that the scientists use their imagination and emotion to explain it to the rest of us in terms we understand.

To share it, they need to make it something the rest of us understand. They do that by making visual representations and sharing their sense of awe.

Yes! this is something I keep banging on about, scientists work in the scientific field they don't own it, it belongs to everyone, science, scientific thinking affects everyone, which is why I like Prof Cox and Jim alkalili, they try to make science more accessible to us less educated, also things like Ted Talks, short sharp bursts of scientific thinking, although it is probably a two way street, we should all endeavour to master the basics.

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Samuel

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Re: Pantheism
« Reply #170 on: February 22, 2016, 02:11:18 PM »
Absolutely! Our lives are made up of emotions!

Which does not alter the fact that they can often mislead us, and that an UN-emotional path is primordial in our search for the truth.

according to David Eagleman our rational brains can not function without feelings. It is our emotions that give weight to a rational perception of the world, allowing us to make decisions.
A lot of people don't believe that the loch ness monster exists. Now, I don't know anything about zooology, biology, geology, herpetology, evolutionary theory, evolutionary biology, marine biology, cryptozoology, palaeontology or archaeology... but I think... what if a dinosaur got into the lake?

Gonnagle

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Re: Pantheism
« Reply #171 on: February 22, 2016, 02:36:38 PM »
Dear Samuel,

I tried watching that programme but that man Eagleman puts me right off, must be my emotional side. :P

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Samuel

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Re: Pantheism
« Reply #172 on: February 22, 2016, 02:37:34 PM »
Very interesting thread. Well done to Shaker.

I've been trying to follow the various lines of discussion, and there are a few so its a bit tricky. What I think lies at the heart of this is the question of meaning. If pantheism is nothing more than a way of understanding or acknowledging the unity of the universe then I would question its usefulness as a distinct term. Its interesting, but is it meaningful?

These elements of the 7th quote in the OP (why does that feel like I'm quoting scripture?), I think, suggest the potential for pantheism to involve more than simply a particular kind of awareness.

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Reverence for Nature and the wider Universe.

Active respect and care for the rights of all humans and other living beings.

Celebration of our lives in our bodies on this beautiful earth as a joy and a privilege.

I'd say these describe activity. It proposes that a pantheist perspective leads to certain actions and that these actions are related to certain human habits that are involved in meaning-making. Reverence - which taken as a verb is close to worship - implies a way of living that expresses those feelings of awe, not simply having those feelings. Rhiannon described this well with the way she interacts with her surroundings, although I know she doesn't consider it worship. Desribing the Earth as beautiful?... well that is subjective but here its given as a positive intention. It almost reads like a prayer.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that panthesim is pointless unless it serves a purpose beyond simply describing a feeling. It has to hold some sort of meaning, provide a framework for living life, which is what all religions do. Like Shaker I have a lot of sympathy for pantheism, particularly for its intrinsically honest perspective on the world. But am I  / could I be a pantheist... I doubt it. I don't know why exactly. Maybe its as simple as not feeling the need to seek meaning on those terms.
A lot of people don't believe that the loch ness monster exists. Now, I don't know anything about zooology, biology, geology, herpetology, evolutionary theory, evolutionary biology, marine biology, cryptozoology, palaeontology or archaeology... but I think... what if a dinosaur got into the lake?

Gonnagle

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Re: Pantheism
« Reply #173 on: February 22, 2016, 02:57:24 PM »
Dear Samuel,

Thank you, first atheist to come out, I do value your input but can I ask, do you think there is confirmation bias working in your post.

The way I see it, this pantheism is a beginning, a way to start thinking of the bigger picture, a way of showing that you are part of this bigger picture, to recognise that we all have a part to play, as in the environment, it is not somebody else's problem, we are all involved.

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Enki

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Re: Pantheism
« Reply #174 on: February 22, 2016, 03:11:30 PM »
Dear Leonard,

But how do you know you are not touching the divine, this Pantheism stuff tells us

Totality of everything, all encompassing immanent God, what you call "acute aesthetic sense" could be us knowing that we are part of everything, as the quote says "identical with divinity", I think this is something to reflect on, in this modern world with the "me me me" we should all remember that we are all part of the whole, we are all made from the same stuff and will go back to the same stuff.

Gonnagle.

I like Len's words 'our acute aesthetic sense'. My emotional responses to the natural world can very much at times includes these emotional/aesthetic feelings of wonder, of connectedness, of inspiration, of mind expanding exhilaration, of humility which Shaker deliniates so successfully in his OP. I have no problem describing this as 'spiritual' either. I suppose, in this manner my attitudes may well have pantheistic overtones.

My problem arises when the divine is mentioned. For me, the divine suggests some sort of conscious presence, and, in this context(i.e. the natural world) I certainly don't have feelings, and have never had feelings which suggest this at all. You may well be right, Gonners, there may indeed be some 'all encompassing immanent God'. You certainly seem to suggest that your  own feeling lie in that direction, and who am I to even want to diss such feelings?

I would only say that to experience this connectedness to the world around us, and without having to imbue it with some sort of divine essence,  this surely does not have to stop us from bemoaning the selfish and material attitudes  which surround us and, indeed, are part of ourselves.
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