Author Topic: Pantheism  (Read 37272 times)

Gonnagle

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Re: Pantheism
« Reply #25 on: February 20, 2016, 10:51:38 AM »
Dear Monotheists,

I am struggling with this quote,

Quote
In contrast, many Monotheists (from "mono" = one+ "theos" = god) define "god" as a supernatural individual. God and Nature are separated.

Who are the many Monotheists that say God and nature are separate, God just sits up in his Heavenly throne and lets us get on with it, if an artist paints a beautiful picture, his blood sweat and tears are in that picture, we are made in Gods image, we are part of God, if we wonder at the beauty of a flower, if we are in awe of a bird in flight, God.

We see God in nature, how can God be separate from his Creation, stuff and nonsense to say God is apart from nature.

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Rhiannon

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Re: Pantheism
« Reply #26 on: February 20, 2016, 10:59:18 AM »
Gonners, Christianity does make the distinction between the Creator and the created. In fact when I tried to express something similar to your pov as part of my theology studies I was slapped down pretty smartly by my otherwise very liberal tutors as that was 'pagan' belief (oh the irony).

I wonder if what you have is a panentheistic Christianity - God us both within creation and without it. You could liken that to the Quaker experience of seeing 'that of God' or the 'Light' within everything.

Shaker

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Re: Pantheism
« Reply #27 on: February 20, 2016, 11:01:23 AM »
Dear Monotheists,

I am struggling with this quote,

Who are the many Monotheists that say God and nature are separate, God just sits up in his Heavenly throne and lets us get on with it, if an artist paints a beautiful picture, his blood sweat and tears are in that picture, we are made in Gods image, we are part of God, if we wonder at the beauty of a flower, if we are in awe of a bird in flight, God.

We see God in nature, how can God be separate from his Creation, stuff and nonsense to say God is apart from nature.

Gonnagle.
I suspect that this refers to the belief that God and creation are separable - indeed, according to the personalistic deity of bog-standard theism, God has always existed and has never not existed, but there was a time when there was no universe. On this view, you can in principle have a God without a creation - if the universe was to disappear (assuming for the moment that such talk even makes sense) there would still be God.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Shaker

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Re: Pantheism
« Reply #28 on: February 20, 2016, 11:02:16 AM »
Gonners, Christianity does make the distinction between the Creator and the created. In fact when I tried to express something similar to your pov as part of my theology studies I was slapped down pretty smartly by my otherwise very liberal tutors as that was 'pagan' belief (oh the irony).
I laughed.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Pantheism
« Reply #29 on: February 20, 2016, 11:14:58 AM »
Well, pantheism isn't necessarily dual or non-dual. The unity doesn't mean there cannot also be a distinct self; of course that self and any separation could be illusory. As someone who once did identify as a panentheist the key belief is the separation between God and the created - God is in the created but also exists outside it. I no longer believe that there is anything outside the created, hence I am a pantheist and not a panentheist.
I guess I'm at the panentheist stage but whether that is "a still" at I remain to be convinced.

As you know Rhiannon my issue with pantheism is the alienation question.
I feel you concentrate on some being alienated against you and you beliefs. I think the real point is that we are able to be alienated in a universe you say .....is one.

I believe Christianity believes in a single creation but is IMHO more realistic that alienation from essential parts of the whole actually exists rather than being illusiory.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2016, 11:18:16 AM by Hugh Janus »

Rhiannon

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Re: Pantheism
« Reply #30 on: February 20, 2016, 11:18:54 AM »

I feel you concentrate on some being alienated against you and you beliefs.

Then you feel wrongly. But then feelings aren't a very reliable guide for anything.

Shaker

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Re: Pantheism
« Reply #31 on: February 20, 2016, 11:20:36 AM »
This probably sums up for me why I'm a pantheist and not an atheist.
All matter, energy, and life are an interconnected unity of which we are an inseparable part. We rejoice in our existence and seek to participate ever more deeply in this unity through knowledge, celebration, meditation, empathy, love, ethical action and art.
For myself, and given the special (in fact unique, as far as I know) interpretation put upon theos in pantheism which means that oddly it's not incompatible with atheism (and to many simply is atheism), I don't see a distinction. There's nothing in the quoted passage to which any atheist could, would or should take exception.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Rhiannon

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Re: Pantheism
« Reply #32 on: February 20, 2016, 11:25:46 AM »
For myself, and given the special (in fact unique, as far as I know) interpretation put upon theos in pantheism which means that oddly it's not incompatible with atheism (and to many simply is atheism), I don't see a distinction. There's nothing in the quoted passage to which any atheist could, would or should take exception.

Yes, I agree with that. I'm not sure why I see a distinction expect maybe that I've always been a theist and it's still where I feel comfortable. That may well change - things usually do I've found.  :)

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Pantheism
« Reply #33 on: February 20, 2016, 11:28:02 AM »
Dear Monotheists,

I am struggling with this quote,

Who are the many Monotheists that say God and nature are separate, God just sits up in his Heavenly throne and lets us get on with it, if an artist paints a beautiful picture, his blood sweat and tears are in that picture, we are made in Gods image, we are part of God, if we wonder at the beauty of a flower, if we are in awe of a bird in flight, God.

We see God in nature, how can God be separate from his Creation, stuff and nonsense to say God is apart from nature.

Gonnagle.
Since we are all part of the Big Man from the get go (according to pantheism).
So given that.....How come I have no idea what you are doing, where you are doing or how good it feels.
In other words if there is unity why is there ignorance not to mention alienation.

On a more traditional note we seem to be drifting back into the lets just quiz the monotheists.

Since this is the pantheist thread let us interlocute pantheism.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Pantheism
« Reply #34 on: February 20, 2016, 11:30:28 AM »
Then you feel wrongly. But then feelings aren't a very reliable guide for anything.
Yes again you respond about me and refuse to answer the question.
Are we then in perfect harmony with our beliefs or not?

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Pantheism
« Reply #35 on: February 20, 2016, 11:37:48 AM »
Yes, I agree with that. I'm not sure why I see a distinction expect maybe that I've always been a theist and it's still where I feel comfortable. That may well change - things usually do I've found.  :)
How would you answer arguments about the cruelty of nature and poor design in nature arguments by atheism against theism.

In other words if the universe is unconscious, unfeeling, random and poorly designed why as the OP says is it "worthy of reverence " .

As my seeming new ally Richard Dawkins would say" do we revere God because we are like imprinted ducklings".

Gonnagle

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Re: Pantheism
« Reply #36 on: February 20, 2016, 11:40:19 AM »
Dear Vlad,

No! no old son, this Pantheist stuff is very interesting, to me we are only at the beginning of the discussion, if we quiz Monotheists, it is only a beginning, I want to get everyone's opinion, making statements about what we believe and don't believe has to be challenged, discussed.

Shaker for instance is saying that atheists are quite comfortable with this Pantheism, well he might be, but I can't help but feel other atheists are squirming, what's all this talk about God, Shaker has lost the plot.

Quote
I guess I'm at the panentheist stage but whether that is "a still" at I remain to be convinced.

Sounds just like me, but we have to question before we move on.

Gonnagle.
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Pantheism
« Reply #37 on: February 20, 2016, 11:43:55 AM »
For myself, and given the special (in fact unique, as far as I know) interpretation put upon theos in pantheism which means that oddly it's not incompatible with atheism (and to many simply is atheism), I don't see a distinction. There's nothing in the quoted passage to which any atheist could, would or should take exception.
What about the long standing arguments atheists have against God and for the  material universe?

Cruel, unconscious, tyrannical, unfeeling.

Rhiannon

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Re: Pantheism
« Reply #38 on: February 20, 2016, 11:51:16 AM »
Yes again you respond about me and refuse to answer the question.
Are we then in perfect harmony with our beliefs or not?

It's not about you, but when you claim to know what I think and feel you are wrong and I have the right to point that out to you.

Gonnagle

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Re: Pantheism
« Reply #39 on: February 20, 2016, 11:53:10 AM »
Dear Vlad,

Quote
Since we are all part of the Big Man from the get go (according to pantheism).
So given that.....How come I have no idea what you are doing, where you are doing or how good it feels.
In other words if there is unity why is there ignorance not to mention alienation.

I think that is what we need to do, strive for unity, we should not alienate anyone, anyway I am chuntering here, the real world beckons, going to pick up the new car ( well newish ) to much like hard work walking the 100 yards to the shops when I can drive :( :(

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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Pantheism
« Reply #40 on: February 20, 2016, 11:53:53 AM »
Dear Vlad,

No! no old son, this Pantheist stuff is very interesting, to me we are only at the beginning of the discussion, if we quiz Monotheists, it is only a beginning, I want to get everyone's opinion, making statements about what we believe and don't believe has to be challenged, discussed.

Shaker for instance is saying that atheists are quite comfortable with this Pantheism, well he might be, but I can't help but feel other atheists are squirming, what's all this talk about God, Shaker has lost the plot.

Sounds just like me, but we have to question before we move on.

Gonnagle.
Thanks for your reply Mr G
And I agree absolutely with what you have said here.
I agree that there must be atheists who must be wondering what Shaker does with regards to traditional atheist arguments such as cruelty, unconsciousness of matter, empiricism, evidence, poor design in the universe.

How does antitheist square wit any kind of theism?

Either that or Shaker comes into the pantheist field as a wolf in sheep's clothing.
I expect savagings and threats of mint sauce.

Rhiannon

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Re: Pantheism
« Reply #41 on: February 20, 2016, 11:54:43 AM »
How would you answer arguments about the cruelty of nature and poor design in nature arguments by atheism against theism.

In other words if the universe is unconscious, unfeeling, random and poorly designed why as the OP says is it "worthy of reverence " .

As my seeming new ally Richard Dawkins would say" do we revere God because we are like imprinted ducklings".

It's not designed. It's not cruel, because that would imply some kind of morality to fight against. It just is. And it is worthy or reverence because it is awesome (in the old-fashioned sense of the word).

Shaker

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Re: Pantheism
« Reply #42 on: February 20, 2016, 11:57:05 AM »
How would you answer arguments about the cruelty of nature and poor design in nature arguments by atheism against theism. In other words if the universe is unconscious, unfeeling, random and poorly designed why as the OP says is it "worthy of reverence " .
It's a serious charge and legitimate charge against pantheism that it can tend toward the saccharine, accentuating the positive and conveniently forgetting the negative - after all, if nature creates kittens, rainbows and sunsets (good), it also creates rectal cancer, the West Nile virus and flash floods (bad). If nature is a totality and a unity you can't smile on the first set and try to brush the other set under the mat and forget all about it.

It's a thoughtful criticism, but it's answered (I would dare to say) by the fact that there's a signal difference between awe and worship - the latter implies positive emotions toward a thing which the former doesn't, necessarily. Leni Riefenstahl's films of the Nuremberg rallies are awe-inspiring because they were vast spectacles meant to be awe-inspiring, yet nobody but Nazis would think that a Nazi rally is a good thing. Very much otherwise. Just remember that description isn't prescription.

To bring the analogies closer to the subject of the thread, consider a common feature of the natural world - a tornado. Something like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7X3fyId2U0

I find that awe-inspiring (I can watch that sort of thing all day long), but not something to worship. It provokes feelings of awe because it's colossal in size and immensely powerful, but we wouldn't say that it's a good thing from a human point of view when humans get in the way. There's no intentionality, conscious purpose or planning ability in a tornado; it's just what stuff does in the universe in which we find ourselves. Tornados, tsunamis, earthquakes, volcanoes and all the rest of it - these things make us feel small and remind us that although we're a part of nature too ultimately we are, as Pascal put it, just reeds, the weakest thing in nature (albeit thinking reeds, as he added). Only a day or two ago Rhiannon remarked that being made to feel small or being reminded of how small we are is good for us - it reminds us of and connects us to the natural world but it also puts us in our right place and puts our often disproportionate fears, worries and ambitions/plans into perspective.

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As my seeming new ally Richard Dawkins would say" do we revere God because we are like imprinted ducklings".
Very possibly.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2016, 12:01:29 PM by Shaker »
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Pantheism
« Reply #43 on: February 20, 2016, 12:00:38 PM »
It's not about you, but when you claim to know what I think and feel you are wrong and I have the right to point that out to you.
Rhiannon
I am sorry if you are getting that impression which is not my intention in anyway....but to use the opportunity. Why the right of privacy in a universe we are supposed to be all connected in?

Rhiannon

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Re: Pantheism
« Reply #44 on: February 20, 2016, 12:03:02 PM »
Yes, it's something you have to accept as a pantheist (and as a pagan, very often) is that the whole of it is what you are regarding as God. It does mean that nothing has a special place in it. But as noted that does help to get a grip sometimes.

I don't worship nature or the universe. It's a part of my spirituality to regard it as sacred, with awe, but not to worship it. That immediately suggests an imbalance and hierarchy that doesn't exist.

Shaker

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Re: Pantheism
« Reply #45 on: February 20, 2016, 12:03:44 PM »
How does antitheist square wit any kind of theism?
It helps if you understand what pantheism actually is before asking a lot of questions which are utterly irrelevant to it. There are several definitions of the concept in the OP; either you get them or you don't, and given your long-standing inability to grasp the definition of something like secularism the latter is looking increasingly unlikely.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Pantheism
« Reply #46 on: February 20, 2016, 12:06:03 PM »
It's not designed. It's not cruel, because that would imply some kind of morality to fight against. It just is. And it is worthy or reverence because it is awesome (in the old-fashioned sense of the word).
Ok but awesome is a feeling and you said a few posts back that we shouldn't rely on feelings. See reply#30

Rhiannon

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Re: Pantheism
« Reply #47 on: February 20, 2016, 12:07:19 PM »
Rhiannon
I am sorry if you are getting that impression which is not my intention in anyway....but to use the opportunity. Why the right of privacy in a universe we are supposed to be all connected in?

Apology accepted.

Unity as far as I am concerned means inter-connectedness on a massive scale. It doesn't mean a complete oneness as in no division between me and a tree or me and you. Whether or not division is illusory we need it to function. But I'm connected to the tree and the atmosphere and the bacteria in my gut. It's how it is.

Shaker

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Re: Pantheism
« Reply #48 on: February 20, 2016, 12:07:26 PM »
Ok but awesome is a feeling and you said a few posts back that we shouldn't rely on feelings.
She actually said that feelings are never a reliable guide to anything, which is true.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Rhiannon

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Re: Pantheism
« Reply #49 on: February 20, 2016, 12:09:21 PM »
Ok but awesome is a feeling and you said a few posts back that we shouldn't rely on feelings. See reply#30

Only in part. Actually if you even begin to scratch the surface of what science teaches us about life it's inescapably incredible. Label it how you will.