Pantheism

[Walt Zingmatilder]

She actually said that feelings are never a reliable guide to anything, which is true.

So how can we say the universe is awesome?

[Shaker]

So how can we say the universe is awesome?

No doubt some people don't - I guess there are some people who don't feel that way because they just don't get it.

Those who do however tend to be aware that it's a subjective feeling on their part based on an aesthetic reaction to the universe. The fact that I detest pickled beetroot imparts a fact about the universe - it describes a subjective state about me - but the key word there is subjective. Other people feel otherwise. This is no different to preferring Metallica over Bach or vice versa - individual opinion, personal taste, subjective feeling, not a universal (in the philosophical sense) claim purporting to be objective truth.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Only in part. Actually if you even begin to scratch the surface of what science teaches us about life it's inescapably incredible. Label it how you will.

So awe is the only acceptable feeling in pantheism is it?
This sounds more and more like the tyrannical God who demands worship so bemoaned by the atheists.

[Shaker]

So awe is the only acceptable feeling in pantheism is it?

No. It's the spur of it, though.

This sounds more and more like the tyrannical God who demands worship so bemoaned by the atheists.

Only if you resolutely insist on not even trying to understand how pantheism is defined, which you seem to be.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

No doubt some people don't - I guess there are some people who don't feel that way because they just don't get it

Or that those who have it are deluded or having an illusion.

[Shaker]

Or that those who have it are deluded or having an illusion.

No - just an emotional/aesthetic reaction. Lots of people do it all the time - books, paintings, music etc. You may have heard of some of them.

[Rhiannon]

So awe is the only acceptable feeling in pantheism is it?
This sounds more and more like the tyrannical God who demands worship so bemoaned by the atheists.

How on earth did you make that leap? Is it because that us what you are used to?

There's no rights and wrongs in pantheism. And as Shaker says not everyone will get it. It's not a religion.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

How on earth did you make that leap? Is it because that us what you are used to?

Or it could be your use of the term "irresistibly incredible". Look can I give you a tip..........either you mean these things.....or you don't.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

No - just an emotional/aesthetic reaction. Lots of people do it all the time - books, paintings, music etc. You may have heard of some of them.

Yes. I'm wondering though why only certain emotional/aesthetic reactions count in pantheism and others don't.

[Shaker]

Yes. I'm wondering though why only certain emotional/aesthetic reactions count in pantheism and others don't.

Which others did you have in mind?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

There's no rights and wrongs in pantheism. And as Shaker says not everyone will get it. It's not a religion.

I get it intellectually.........but is it true.

And if it is why do some people not get it.

And aren't those who do get it special.

And what happened to irresistible in credibility?

[Shaker]

I get it intellectually.........but is it true.

For some reason that I can't fathom you're still treating pantheism as a religion like Christianity with a checklist of propositional beliefs that purport to describe facts about reality which can either be true or not true and can be ascertained to be so by some means or other. As Rhiannon has said, it may be that you're so inescapably wedded to a paradigm like that (such as Christianity) that you can't see or step outside of it.

It isn't like that. At all.

And if it is why do some people not get it.

Why do some people love marzipan and others not? Why do some people love Wagner and others not?

And aren't those who do get it special.

No.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Which others did you have in mind?

The feeling that we are alienated from our true selves, against God , against each other and against nature. Rhiannon discounted these in post30

[Shaker]

The feeling that we are alienated from our true selves, against God , against each other and against nature.

*sigh*

Given what pantheism actually means - i.e. that there's no difference between Nature and God; that they're synonyms for the same thing - then strictly speaking it's impossible to be alienated from it. That would be like saying you can climb out of the natural world, which is absurd.

On a subjective level you can certainly feel yourself to be alienated from nature; it often happens in times of deep clinical depression. Coleridge described it well in 'Dejection: An Ode' when he referred to the stars, clouds and moon that normally gave him transports of delight: "I see, not feel, how beautiful they are."

Feeling alienated in these ways are quirks of human psychology. Sometimes they pass on their own without treatment (even the severest of depressions pass over eventually provided you can stand it long enough to wait for it to go), sometimes they require treatment.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

For some reason that I can't fathom you're still treating pantheism as a religion like Christianity with a checklist of propositional beliefs that purport to describe facts about reality which can either be true or not true and can be ascertained to be so by some means or other.

No I'm treating it as though it is a theism. Not atheism but a theism.

Therefore equating atheism with a theism is either the grandest of category errors or it is the most heinous attempt at linguistic fascism I've seen in anti theism.

In any case this is becoming about me again and I did promise I would leave this thread to turn nasty, either when you turn on the pantheists or the other antitheists find out about your new found disdain of methods or ways of seeking truth.

[Shaker]

No I'm treating it as though it is a theism. Not atheism but a theism.

That's an unfortunate feature of language which seems to be causing you confusion here which can only be dispelled if you go back to the OP and read it over again.

Therefore equating atheism with a theism is either the grandest of category errors or it is the most heinous attempt at linguistic fascism I've seen in anti theism.

See above.

In any case this is becoming about me again

Is it ever about anything but, once you rock up on a thread?

and I did promise I would leave this thread to turn nasty

No reason why it should do - it has attracted a modicum of interest and until you pitched up some interesting comments and observations and questions.

either when you turn on the pantheists or the other antitheists find out about your new found disdain of methods or ways of seeking truth.

If you weren't leaving I'd ask you to specify this so-called disdain of mine of methods or ways of seeking truth.

But since, as you said, you're leaving ...

[Walt Zingmatilder]

*sigh*

Given what pantheism actually means - i.e. that there's no difference between Nature and God; that they're synonyms for the same thing - then strictly speaking it's impossible to be alienated from it. That would be like saying you can climb out of the natural world, which is absurd.

Thank you you have just confirmed that pantheism not only considers certain feelings invalid but that they are invalid because pantheism must represent a truth which
Contradicts this statement

For some reason that I can't fathom you're still treating pantheism as a religion like Christianity with a checklist of propositional beliefs that purport to describe facts about reality which can either be true or not true and can be ascertained to be so by some means or other. As Rhiannon has said, it may be that you're so inescapably wedded to a paradigm like that (such as Christianity) that you can't see or step outside of it.

No.

And pantheism isn't a paradigm?

[Shaker]

Thought you were leaving?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Thought you were leaving?

You are making it about me again .....................

How's your hostile takeover bid for pantheism coming on?

[Shaker]

Excellently.

Bye.

[Bubbles]

I like much about pantheism.

I'm inclined to fall for the fluffy stuff now and again 

It brings me down to earth to remember given a moment of stupidity, I am merely part of the food chain 

( looks round quickly incase NS is lurking in the shadows )

But joking aside I like the Native American stuff, I find it quite spiritual.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I like much about pantheism.

I'm inclined to fall for the fluffy stuff now and again 

It brings me down to earth to remember given a moment of stupidity, I am merely part of the food chain 

( looks round quickly incase NS is lurking in the shadows )

But joking aside I like the Native American stuff, I find it quite spiritual.

Is knowledge of being part of the nutrient cycle pantheism?

Crikey Shaker ....Your hostile takeover bid is working better than expected.

[Rhiannon]

Or it could be your use of the term "irresistibly incredible". Look can I give you a tip..........either you mean these things.....or you don't.

Go back and see which word I really used.

[Rhiannon]

The feeling that we are alienated from our true selves, against God , against each other and against nature. Rhiannon discounted these in post30

No, what I discounted was your attempt to tie in feelings of alienation with pantheism.

[Bubbles]

Is knowledge of being part of the nutrient cycle pantheism?

Crikey Shaker ....Your hostile takeover bid is working better than expected.

 

It could well be, our connectedness as in our ( all life) reliance on each other, the food chain from the minutest to the biggest.

Ecology, is the word.

How everything fits.

Even decay and how that works, bacteria and bugs breaking it down back to nutrients to feed roots and fungi

The cycle of birth death and rebirth.

Planting a tree over a loved one, seeing it bloom with blossom.

Yes, I think it is.