The battle for female clergy

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I believe the first woman Bishop has been in the job for about a year now.......but there is one thing which puzzles me.
Why there hasn't been a similar battle by women to become female dustmen?

[Shaker]

I don't know as a matter of fact, but I expect that there are female dustpersons in some places.

Organized monotheistic religions are widely perceived to be inherently and institutionally patriarchal at best and misogynist at worst. We happen to live in a world where a female bishop is more remarkable and more news-worthy than a female refuse collector. The opinion of bishops on moral issues is still sought; the opinion of clergy still has some sway and is perceived by some to carry some weight. The opinion of a bin man doesn't. As an equal shareholder in society it ought to, but it doesn't. I can't change that.

This, to me, says very little of substance about anything but organized religion.

[Enki]

I think the answer to that has to be 'popular culture.' If the song 'my old man's a dustman' was replaced with 'my old woman's a dustman' it simply wouldn't scan. Hence a generation or two of men have encouraged the female sex never to take up their dustbins in anger lest they destroy the aesthetic beauty of a good song.

Mind you, you might think that the above is just a load of rubbish!

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I don't know as a matter of fact, but I expect that there are female dustpersons in some places.

Ever seen any?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I think the answer to that has to be 'popular culture.' If the song 'my old man's a dustman' was replaced with 'my old woman's a dustman' it simply wouldn't scan. Hence a generation or two of men have encouraged the female sex never to take up their dustbins in anger lest they destroy the aesthetic beauty of a good song.

Mind you, you might think that the above is just a load of rubbish!

I never looked at the refuse collection community as particularly and exclusive against females. If it is why has it not been assailed by the fairer gender in the name of equality?

[Shaker]

Ever seen any?

In my area? Not a single one, ever.

But I don't take my particular and specific limited experience to be indicative of the nation as a whole.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

In my area? Not a single one, ever.

But I don't take my particular and specific limited experience to be indicative of the nation as a whole.

Me neither...but then I have seen regiments of ladies assailing the Synod on TV...but never any outside the Civic centre assailing any town councils.

[Shaker]

Perhaps they know how to behave and how to comport themselves with a bit of dignity. On the whole it tends to be the men who do the screaming and the shouting and the anger and the violence, you know. It's the testosterone.

[Rhiannon]

Women aren't excluded from dustperson positions and have full protection in law should they decide to apply for dustperson jobs of any rank.

Not so female clergy, or indeed women wanting to be priests in the Catholic church.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Women aren't excluded from dustperson positions and have full protection in law should they decide to apply for dustperson jobs of any rank.

So why is their such a disparity?

[Shaker]

So why is their such a disparity?

I suspect it's because in everyday occupations the fight for equality has in many places been won (note that I say many, not all), whereas in organised religions that equality is still a long way off. Female priests in the C of E only happened twenty-two years ago; in the Catholic church they're as far away as they've ever been.

[ProfessorDavey]

I believe the first woman Bishop has been in the job for about a year now.......but there is one thing which puzzles me.
Why there hasn't been a similar battle by women to become female dustmen?

I'm sure there are plenty of female dustmen (err - refuse collection personnel). But that isn't the point.

The point being that whether or not there actually were any females in that role there was nothing to stop them applying or being appointed. By contrast until recently women were banned from becoming bishops in the CofE and indeed still are in many other denominations, plenty of which ban them from even become clergy.

Surely even you can see the difference Vlad.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I'm sure there are plenty of female dustmen (err - refuse collection personnel).

Seen any?

[Shaker]

Seen any?

See #5. What is it about this point you're just not getting?

[BeRational]

Seen any?

Yes I have.
In my area a female drives the truck and on occasion collects the bins.
This is not a heavy job with the new wheels bins, there is no lifting

[Sebastian Toe]

Seen any?

Follow the link and you can say that you have seen one...
http://www.theguardian.com/money/2009/oct/24/refuse-collector-trash-culture


oh, look....another one

http://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-a-female-refuse-collector-at-work-hackney-london-uk-7292170.html

..and another

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/womens-business/10431062/Im-the-only-one-of-my-friends-doing-a-job-like-this-my-life-as-a-bin-lady.html

seemingly 6% of refuse collectors are female.

What is the percentage of women bishops again? 

[Walt Zingmatilder]

seemingly 6% of refuse collectors are female.

A veritable triumph of gender equality.

Whose complaining about such disparity? Where are the demonstrations?

[Sebastian Toe]

A veritable triumph of gender equality.

Whose complaining about such disparity? Where are the demonstrations?

Percentage of women Bishops is......?

[ProfessorDavey]

A veritable triumph of gender equality.

Whose complaining about such disparity? Where are the demonstrations?

Which is it Vlad - are you stupid or just a WUM.

The point is that women were banned (and in many cases still are) from becoming bishops - they weren't (and aren't) banned from being refuse collectors. That they chose not to take that career option isn't a matter of overt discrimination by the refuse collecting company, but choice on the part of the individual. That there aren't any women Bishops in the RCC, for example (and the CofE until recently, was due to overt gender discrimination from the churches.

There is also the point that Bishops are powerful and influential people - largely responsible for running religious organisations - so women were completely excluded from this leadership role. The same cannot be said for refuse collectors, really, can it Vlad.

[john]

I have a female dustperson, very pretty she is too.

Also working out of a yard near where I live is the local branch of this all female skip hire and rubbish disposal firm. All their lorries are painted pink and have female drivers.


http://www.pinkskipco.co.uk/

Business seems to be good judging by the amount of lorries they have in my area alone.

[Bubbles]

I've got a feeling if I said because it's dirty smelly and breaks your nails I'd get called sexist again   

But not all women, want to do jobs that get them covered in oil or dirt or cement.

I suppose not all men do either.

But many women around me spend lots of time putting on those false nails you paint with pretty colours. ( not that I do  )

Men don't go in for that sort of thing, but being a dustman isn't going to do much for expensive nails 

Bishops don't have the same issues 

It's a clean job 

It's a bit of a generalisation, but women tend to like clean jobs.

Not all, but in proportion.

Also dirty jobs like working on the road is seen as more butch.

However women often do housework and other dirty work.

Probably just cultural.

If you have spent hard cash doing your hair ( and women pay a lot more than men at the hairdresser) and false nails you don't really want to be out in the rain laying breeze blocks.

 

[john]

Oh yes just remembered.

About 3 years ago we kept getting raw sewage upflowing from the manhole in my little rear garden. Seven Trent Water were very good and cleaned it up and sprayed detergent on about 3 occasions. They sent cameras up my drains and established the cause to be a house upstream putting disposable nappies down the loo. This went on for several months and repeated complaints from me. What's the point of this ramble well.....   

During the course of this problem I got a letter telling me that the companies head of domestic effluent complaints J.P. Donnelly (with loads of letters after the name) was coming round to look into the problem on a set date and time the following week. Judging by the name and job description I was expecting an Irishman in a ford transit (yes racist I know but bear with me). Imagine my surprise when on the day up drove a middle aged woman in a convertible Audi sports car, this was JP Donnelly.

And very efficient and helpful she was.  Just goes to prove women can do anything, except in the Catholic Church. Eventually she got me £200 in compensation and the offenders were threatened with prosecution and I have had no problem since.

[floo]

I believe the first woman Bishop has been in the job for about a year now.......but there is one thing which puzzles me.
Why there hasn't been a similar battle by women to become female dustmen?

I saw a woman in that job fairly recently!

[Hope]

I believe the first woman Bishop has been in the job for about a year now.......but there is one thing which puzzles me.
Why there hasn't been a similar battle by women to become female dustmen?

There have been female Bishops for decades, Vlad.  Yes, the Church of England element of the Anglican Communion has only had them for about a year, but other parts of the Communion have had them for 30+ years, and the first Anglican female presiding bishop/archbishop was ordained in 2006 - Katharine Jefferts Schori. Baptists first ordained women as pastors as long ago as 1928 (Baptists don't have a hierarchy in the same way as the Anglicans or Catholics - the highest level of ordination they have is pastors).  The Salvation Army has had women 'officers' since the mid-1800s.

Regarding your point about women dustpersons, perhaps the unions or the authorities regard it as an unsuitable role for women     

[Hope]

Women aren't excluded from dustperson positions and have full protection in law should they decide to apply for dustperson jobs of any rank.

Not so female clergy, or indeed women wanting to be priests in the Catholic church.

Wrong, Rhi.  As I've already pointed out, the Baptists, Salvation Army - and Methodists - have ordained women for many years.  In fact, the Church of England were possibly the first denomination to ordain women - as deaconesses; Deaconess Licence #1 was awarded in 1862, 3 years befoere the Salvation Army came into being.  Contrary to popular belief, they were trained and underwent a form of ordination or 'setting apart', albeit not on the same level as ordination for men.

The concept of women as church leaders goes back to Paul's epistles in 50 AD or so.