Author Topic: The Biblical Contradiction Thread  (Read 35749 times)

Shaker

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Re: The Biblical Contradiction Thread
« Reply #225 on: March 18, 2016, 03:24:34 PM »
Well obviously God is asleep, when it doesn't happen.

Seriously though. When you pray for something, it has to be for God's glory otherwise it's like we are telling him what to do.
Smashing, but where's the answer to my question?

An end to hunger, poverty and disease - a stable climate - an end to cancer in children (or indeed anyone of any age) - would they not be to God's glory?
« Last Edit: March 18, 2016, 04:08:59 PM by Shaker »
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

floo

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Re: The Biblical Contradiction Thread
« Reply #226 on: March 18, 2016, 03:36:51 PM »
Well obviously God is asleep, when it doesn't happen.

Seriously though. When you pray for something, it has to be for God's glory otherwise it's like we are telling him what to do.

A deity which expects worship and everything done for its 'glory' is completely up its own backside! :o

Maeght

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Re: The Biblical Contradiction Thread
« Reply #227 on: March 18, 2016, 03:46:09 PM »
You mean something like, praying for something to happen and it does?

If someone prayed for something to happen which was impossible to happen other than by divine intervention, and it happened there and then, then that would be impressive. Otherwise, not proof of anything.

Spud

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Re: The Biblical Contradiction Thread
« Reply #228 on: March 18, 2016, 04:52:06 PM »
Smashing, but where's the answer to my question?

An end to hunger, poverty and disease - a stable climate - an end to cancer in children (or indeed anyone of any age) - would they not be to God's glory?
When face to face with the paralytic, it was just as important to Jesus that the young man's sins were forgiven as it was that he was physically healed. This is reaffirmed in the Lord's prayer. Give us our daily bread... Forgive us...as we forgive...thine is the glory...

Spud

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Re: The Biblical Contradiction Thread
« Reply #229 on: March 18, 2016, 05:14:08 PM »
If someone prayed for something to happen which was impossible to happen other than by divine intervention, and it happened there and then, then that would be impressive. Otherwise, not proof of anything.
This is more like what I was expecting someone to say in answer to my question about what would convince them. I notice you didn't say it would convince you. This implies that nothing would convince you, which illustrates what was behind my original question to floo. Even if someone goes to them from the dead, some will not be convinced. "Er, excuse me, would you mind just explaining your methodology for returning from the dead"  :)

Brownie

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Re: The Biblical Contradiction Thread
« Reply #230 on: March 18, 2016, 05:19:19 PM »
Because it is so very unlikely, most of us would believe we were hallucinating and freak out.

I do believe God answers prayer but in a quiet and subtle way.  It means something to the person whose prayer has been answered, others might consider it to be a coincidence or something like.
Let us profit by what every day and hour teaches us

jeremyp

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Re: The Biblical Contradiction Thread
« Reply #231 on: March 18, 2016, 05:22:55 PM »
When face to face with the paralytic, it was just as important to Jesus that the young man's sins were forgiven as it was that he was physically healed.
How did Jesus heal him? Did he say "sleep it off and in the morning take two aspirin for the hangover?"

It's a lot easier to say "your sins are forgiven" than to cause an amputated limb to regrow. As far as I know, not even Jesus did the latter.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2016, 06:02:24 PM by jeremyp »
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Maeght

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Re: The Biblical Contradiction Thread
« Reply #232 on: March 18, 2016, 06:01:50 PM »
This is more like what I was expecting someone to say in answer to my question about what would convince them. I notice you didn't say it would convince you. This implies that nothing would convince you,

No it doesn't, since I wasn't replying to you question.

Quote
... which illustrates what was behind my original question to floo. Even if someone goes to them from the dead, some will not be convinced. "Er, excuse me, would you mind just explaining your methodology for returning from the dead"  :)

If something which is impossible to have happened there and then without divine intervention was shown to have definitely happened then I would have to take that very seriously of course. I could be convinced provided there was strong evidence that it had to be divine intervention.Clearly, since I have no belief, it would take a lot to convince me - but it is not impossible.

Gordon

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Re: The Biblical Contradiction Thread
« Reply #233 on: March 18, 2016, 06:29:57 PM »
I notice you didn't say it would convince you. This implies that nothing would convince you

That is a non sequitur, Spud.

Quote
Even if someone goes to them from the dead, some will not be convinced. "Er, excuse me, would you mind just explaining your methodology for returning from the dead"  :)

Problem here is we aren't in a position to investigate the actual event: there are only ancient anecdotal claims of a natural impossibility as recorded by potentially biased people. Not only is being sceptical a reasonable response here, it also includes giving consideration to the possibility of mistakes or lies being a factor in these anecdotes: I've repeatedly asked Hope how he has excluded these risks, but without response, so perhaps you could explain how you have.
 

Spud

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Re: The Biblical Contradiction Thread
« Reply #234 on: March 18, 2016, 07:56:34 PM »
Maeght, thanks for correcting me. I have never seen anyone completely healed of an illness, such that I would say it was the kind of proof you describe needing. But recently I have been involved with a patient with expressive aphasia, and most of the time she cannot say what she is thinking, having had a catastrophic stroke 2 years ago. Occasionally however, her speech improves dramatically, so much so that I conclude it is a result of divine intervention. Nobody has come up with a physiological explanation yet. On a more general note though, for myself it is things like that as well as the miracle of life which I see as evidence for God.

Maeght

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Re: The Biblical Contradiction Thread
« Reply #235 on: March 18, 2016, 08:50:15 PM »
Maeght, thanks for correcting me. I have never seen anyone completely healed of an illness, such that I would say it was the kind of proof you describe needing. But recently I have been involved with a patient with expressive aphasia, and most of the time she cannot say what she is thinking, having had a catastrophic stroke 2 years ago. Occasionally however, her speech improves dramatically, so much so that I conclude it is a result of divine intervention. Nobody has come up with a physiological explanation yet. On a more general note though, for myself it is things like that as well as the miracle of life which I see as evidence for God.

I don't know anything specific about expressive aphasia so can't comment on any possible non divine causes of periods of improvement. I would ask why God would only occasionally cause improvement and not effect a cure or to have prevented the problem in the first place - but that's a different question. The problem is, I understand, due to damage to the brain and we know the brain is complex and not fully understood and shows amazing plasticity - but I'm sure that won't sound at all convincing to you. Such a situation isn't one which is clearly impossible without divine intervention I would say.

Miracle of life? We don't know how common life is within our universe - it may be unique to Earth or wide spread. Either way to view life on Earth as evidence for God is a consequence of a religious mind set I'm afraid.

floo

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Re: The Biblical Contradiction Thread
« Reply #236 on: March 19, 2016, 03:23:43 PM »
Maeght, thanks for correcting me. I have never seen anyone completely healed of an illness, such that I would say it was the kind of proof you describe needing. But recently I have been involved with a patient with expressive aphasia, and most of the time she cannot say what she is thinking, having had a catastrophic stroke 2 years ago. Occasionally however, her speech improves dramatically, so much so that I conclude it is a result of divine intervention. Nobody has come up with a physiological explanation yet. On a more general note though, for myself it is things like that as well as the miracle of life which I see as evidence for God.

My husband has aphasia after his brain haemorrhage in 2006, sometimes his speech is much worse than others. So are you suggesting that when he speaks very clearly that is divine intervention? ::)

Spud

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Re: The Biblical Contradiction Thread
« Reply #237 on: March 19, 2016, 05:33:56 PM »
My husband has aphasia after his brain haemorrhage in 2006, sometimes his speech is much worse than others. So are you suggesting that when he speaks very clearly that is divine intervention? ::)
Sorry to hear that. I do know what you are dealing with. I would be surprised if your husband's phases of good speech don't seem like divine intervention, even if there is a physiological explanation. That's how it is with this person. I can only say that for her I personally am convinced that God had a reason for keeping her alive and that her brief unexplained periods of remission are his way of encouraging us to persevere during the relapses. I suppose you need to believe in God in order to see it this way though. Has your husband been affected in other ways, like muscular weakness for example?

Spud

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Re: The Biblical Contradiction Thread
« Reply #238 on: March 19, 2016, 05:40:21 PM »
I don't know anything specific about expressive aphasia so can't comment on any possible non divine causes of periods of improvement. I would ask why God would only occasionally cause improvement and not effect a cure or to have prevented the problem in the first place - but that's a different question. The problem is, I understand, due to damage to the brain and we know the brain is complex and not fully understood and shows amazing plasticity - but I'm sure that won't sound at all convincing to you. Such a situation isn't one which is clearly impossible without divine intervention I would say.

Miracle of life? We don't know how common life is within our universe - it may be unique to Earth or wide spread. Either way to view life on Earth as evidence for God is a consequence of a religious mind set I'm afraid.
The way I see it, everything we see could not have formed through natural processes; there isnt evidence that things create themselves. Where did energy come from for example? There has to be a creative power which is personal, since it created us humans.

Stranger

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Re: The Biblical Contradiction Thread
« Reply #239 on: March 19, 2016, 05:44:54 PM »
The way I see it, everything we see could not have formed through natural processes; there isnt evidence that things create themselves. Where did energy come from for example? There has to be a creative power which is personal, since it created us humans.

God could not have formed through natural processes; there isnt evidence that things create themselves. Where did energy come from for example? There has to be a creative power which is personal, since it created god.

x(∅ ∈ x ∧ ∀y(yxy ∪ {y} ∈ x))

Shaker

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Re: The Biblical Contradiction Thread
« Reply #240 on: March 19, 2016, 05:47:43 PM »
The way I see it, everything we see could not have formed through natural processes; there isnt evidence that things create themselves. Where did energy come from for example? There has to be a creative power which is personal, since it created us humans.
Specify the reasons as to why it has to be personal, please.

Yet again you seem to be amongst that legion of those who always reach immediately for a who and not a what. Theists, in other words.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

floo

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Re: The Biblical Contradiction Thread
« Reply #241 on: March 19, 2016, 06:13:47 PM »
Sorry to hear that. I do know what you are dealing with. I would be surprised if your husband's phases of good speech don't seem like divine intervention, even if there is a physiological explanation. That's how it is with this person. I can only say that for her I personally am convinced that God had a reason for keeping her alive and that her brief unexplained periods of remission are his way of encouraging us to persevere during the relapses. I suppose you need to believe in God in order to see it this way though. Has your husband been affected in other ways, like muscular weakness for example?

My husband has half a working brain, is epileptic, although the meds have kept the seizures at bay for about 7 years. He is blind to all intents and purposes in his right eye. His right side is fairly insensitive, he once walked few yards with a putty knife in his wellington before he realised it felt a bit strange. :o He can take himself off for his daily walks on his own, and walk quite a distance, much further and faster than arthritic me.

Brain damage is a very weird thing, my husband can do really complicated graphs on the computer, but couldn't compose, or send an e-mail. He can understand written instructions and put flat pack furniture together for instance, something at which I am hopeless, but if I ask him for say a knife, fork or spoon from the drawer, I can get anything but what I have asked him for. He can give me directions if I am driving, I am useless at giving directions, but he can't explain something simple like where he has put an item I am in need of.

Of course as a academic this is highly frustrating for him. He finds it very hard to accept that little me, who is not nearly as intelligent as him and our three girls, occasionally knows best, especially where his health is concerned. I do feel sorry for him, but on no account will I treat him any differently to the way I would have done before his illness, as he would hate that. I tell him like it is even though it doesn't always make me popular.

Added to his other problems he has a dodgy prostrate, the jury has been out since 2004 as to whether he has prostate cancer, his PSA is always very high. He has also developed what we are told is a benign tremor, but I am concerned it could be Parkinson's Disease, which killed his mother!

However, we have three wonderful girls who look out for us, so we are very grateful indeed as there are so many people much worse off than us.

Sorry to ramble on! :-[

Maeght

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Re: The Biblical Contradiction Thread
« Reply #242 on: March 19, 2016, 07:00:11 PM »
The way I see it, everything we see could not have formed through natural processes; there isnt evidence that things create themselves. Where did energy come from for example? There has to be a creative power which is personal, since it created us humans.

I've never understood that phrase oft used by creationists 'things create themselves' - things would have to exist to initiate the creation process so how can they be created if already existing ... anyway .... the answer is we don't know and may never know, but that doesn't mean it has to have been an act instigated by a personal power known as God. To come to that conclusion requires a belief in God.