FLDS

[Leonard James]

There is NO evidence that any dogma, doctrine, sect or cult has the 'truth' including Christianity.

People blinkered by their religion can't see that.

[Sebastian Toe]

the Book of Mormon which, save for mentioning Jesus at a couple of points

What research did you do to come to that statement, Hope?

Let me guess, you were once half way up a foothill in Nepal when you over heard one farmer say to another 'See that Book of Mormon, it only mentions Jesus at a couple of points........'

I hope you put more effort into ensuring that the bible is accurate! 

2 Ne 31:10
And he said unto the children of men: Follow thou me. Wherefore, my beloved brethren, can we follow Jesus save we shall be willing to keep the commandments of the Father?

2 Ne. 25:19
For according to the words of the prophets, the Messiah cometh in six hundred years from the time that my father left Jerusalem; and according to the words of the prophets, and also the word of the angel of God, his name shall be Jesus Christ, the Son of God.

Alma 5:44
For I am called to speak after this manner, according to the holy order of God, which is in Christ Jesus; yea, I am commanded to stand and testify unto this people the things which have been spoken by our fathers concerning the things which are to come.

2 Ne. 10:3
Wherefore, as I said unto you, it must needs be expedient that Christ—for in the last night the angel spake unto me that this should be his name—should come among the Jews, among those who are the more wicked part of the world; and they shall crucify him—for thus it behooveth our God, and there is none other nation on earth that would crucify their God.

Alma 11:44
ow, this restoration shall come to all, both old and young, both bond and free, both male and female, both the wicked and the righteous; and even there shall not so much as a hair of their heads be lost; but every thing shall be restored to its perfect frame, as it is now, or in the body, and shall be brought and be arraigned before the bar of Christ the Son, and God the Father, and the Holy Spirit, which is one Eternal God, to be judged according to their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil.


..and there's more, lots more!

[Shaker]

3,925 references rather than "a couple of points." If we're being picky

[Hope]

What research did you do to come to that statement, Hope?

Let me guess, you were once half way up a foothill in Nepal when you over heard one farmer say to another 'See that Book of Mormon, it only mentions Jesus at a couple of points........'

Discussions with visiting Mormons in my own house, reading 20 or 25 books that deal with sects and cults, reading the Book of Mormon itself (though it took me some time as it either put me to sleep or had me writing notes in the margin)

I hope you put more effort into ensuring that the bible is accurate! 

I've probably spend many times more time studying the context and background, lt alone the text of the Bible, Seb, so I've certainly done that.

[Hope]

3,925 references rather than "a couple of points." If we're being picky

But references can be misleading, and none of the references in the Book of Mormon refer to him as God.

[floo]

Discussions with visiting Mormons in my own house, reading 20 or 25 books that deal with sects and cults, reading the Book of Mormon itself (though it took me some time as it either put me to sleep or had me writing notes in the margin)
I've probably spend many times more time studying the context and background, lt alone the text of the Bible, Seb, so I've certainly done that.

How can you ensure that Bible is accurate when there is no evidence to support its accuracy?

[Shaker]

Discussions with visiting Mormons in my own house, reading 20 or 25 books that deal with sects and cults, reading the Book of Mormon itself (though it took me some time as it either put me to sleep or had me writing notes in the margin)

Mark Twain did of course famously describe the Book of Mormon as "chloroform in print."

Nevertheless, the ever-witty Mr Clemens aside, the question persists as to why you think that a book you claim to have read (and made notes on - I hope they didn't disappear) mentions Jesus only at "a couple of points" when the actual number of references is almost 4,000, a few of these having been quoted by Sebastian Toe earlier.

[Sebastian Toe]

But references can be misleading, and none of the references in the Book of Mormon refer to him as God.

Did I just see a goalpost being moved ever so slightly?

[Shaker]

I do believe you did

[OH MY WORLD!]

So because they mention Jesus Christ, they are Christian. That's too funny, and very stunted.

Now get educated.

http://www.4truth.net/fourtruthpbnew.aspx?pageid=8589952801

http://www.bible-truth.org/arelds.htm

[Shaker]

So because they mention Jesus Christ, they are Christian.

No - because of how they regard Jesus, not merely because they mention him.

Now get educated.

http://www.4truth.net/fourtruthpbnew.aspx?pageid=8589952801

http://www.bible-truth.org/arelds.htm

One lot of people with batty beliefs disagrees with another bunch of people with slightly different but no less batty beliefs. Stop the presses

[OH MY WORLD!]

If you actually compared the Jesus of the Bible to the Jesus of the Mormon church you wouldn't make such stunted mistakes, Shaker. Even their dead prophet Hinckley admitted that their Christ is not the same Christ as mine.

http://www.dtl.org/cults/article/mormonism.htm

http://www.apologeticsindex.org/m04aa.html

[Shaker]

If you actually compared the Jesus of the Bible to the Jesus of the Mormon church you wouldn't make such stunted mistakes, Shaker. Even their dead prophet Hinckley admitted that their Christ is not the same Christ as mine.

http://www.dtl.org/cults/article/mormonism.htm

http://www.apologeticsindex.org/m04aa.html

So what? That doesn't make you right and them wrong.

[Brownie]

I found this on the 'net, actually from the LDS church:

http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/what-mormons-believe-about-jesus-christ

Seems much the same as other Christian beliefs.

However I also read that LDS believe Jesus was the product of God the Father - in the flesh - who had relations with a woman, his ''Goddess''.   I don't know how true that is, it wasn't from 'the horse's mouth'.

I do know LDS differ from other Christians in their idea of God the Father, whom they believe was a mortal at one time.

So who knows?  It would be good if we had a LDS poster on here, to answer our questions.  There were a couple of really nice ones on the old BBC board (Katherine and Christian), but that was many years ago.

[Dicky Underpants]

But references can be misleading, and none of the references in the Book of Mormon refer to him as God.

As noted, that goalpost suddenly flashed a few miles to another pitch. But even here you're wrong, since the preface to the BOM does refer to him as 'one with the Father and the HG, one God', and there is another reference (the incident where the brother of Jared sees the hand of God (literally), where a voice from the skies says "I am the Father and the Son").

This is of course a case where we see the usual religious twistings and turnings to explain away the discrepancy - which traditional Christian Trinitarians also have to employ, since the Bible is by no means consistent on the question of the divinity of Christ (hence elaborate doctrines such as kenosis and the like).

However, since the BOM does quite virtually verbatim from the KJV at a number of points, and a version of the Sermon on the Mount is preached by Jesus to the 'Americans', the Mormons' Jesus has enough in common with the one of the older tradition to make the Mormons' claim that they are 'Christian' seem plausible.
Doesn't make their loopy beliefs any more convincing, or alter the fact that Joseph Smith was a skilled conman who ended up believing his own lies.

[OH MY WORLD!]

What a very stunted argument you have Shaker. If the Jesus of the Bible is very different from the one the Mormons use, then I know the Mormon church is not Christian.

Did you even know that for most of the Mormon history, they rejected the name Christian. They didn't want it until they decided that if they used that name they would be more accepted and it would also help in their proselytizing.

Just do a little research Shaker and stop thinking out of your butt. Or just look at the comparison charts.

http://standupforthetruth.com/hot-topics/mormonism/

http://www.kc-cofc.org/39th/IBS/Tracts/bom1.htm

You could go around telling everybody that you are a good person, that doesn't prove that you are. What does the Mormon church preach, and is it in opposition to the Bible? Yes it is. The fact is you haven't a clue what they preach and you are willing to believe they are Christian cause they say so. Well they use to not say so.

[Brownie]

I copied the above links and read them, OMW.  Both are from very biased, anti-Mormon sites.  I reiterate that we can only get the truth about what LDS believe from LDS themselves.

It seems pointless to write something in order to tear down the belief of another, particularly when they do no harm. There's no reason why we cannot peacefully coexist.

[Leonard James]

... or alter the fact that Joseph Smith was a skilled conman who ended up believing his own lies.

The sad thing being that he was clever enough to get a lot of other people to believe them. 

[Sebastian Toe]

But references can be misleading, and none of the references in the Book of Mormon refer to him as God.

and you can say this because of all of your studying of the BoM?

Discussions with visiting Mormons in my own house, reading 20 or 25 books that deal with sects and cults, reading the Book of Mormon itself (though it took me some time as it either put me to sleep or had me writing notes in the margin)
I've probably spend many times more time studying the context and background, lt alone the text of the Bible, Seb, so I've certainly done that.

However despite all of that you seem to have missed some bits?


2 Nephi 26

[12] And as I spake concerning the convincing of the Jews, that Jesus is the very Christ, it must needs be that the Gentiles be convinced also that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God;

3 Nephi 5

[20] I am Mormon, and a pure descendant of Lehi. I have reason to bless my God and my Savior Jesus Christ, that he brought our fathers out of the land of Jerusalem, (and no one knew it save it were himself and those whom he brought out of that land) and that he hath given me and my people so much knowledge unto the salvation of our souls.

3 Nephi 19
[18] And behold, they began to pray; and they did pray unto Jesus, calling him their Lord and their God. 


Mormon 3
[21] And also that ye may believe the gospel of Jesus Christ, which ye shall have among you; and also that the Jews, the covenant people of the Lord, shall have other witness besides him whom they saw and heard, that Jesus, whom they slew, was the very Christ and the very God.

Ether 3
[14] Behold, I am he who was prepared from the foundation of the world to redeem my people. Behold, I am Jesus Christ. I am the Father and the Son. In me shall all mankind have life, and that eternally, even they who shall believe on my name; and they shall become my sons and my daughters.

[Hope]

Seb - the problem with all these references is that Mormonism does not regard Jesus as one with God.  It regards him as a human being.

[Shaker]

Seb - the problem with all these references is that Mormonism does not regard Jesus as one with God.  It regards him as a human being.

... which is itself a belief held by some denominations/groupings of religious believers you'd recognise as Christian, yes? Doubtless there's a term for it - there usually is.

[Sebastian Toe]

Seb - the problem with all these references is that Mormonism does not regard Jesus as one with God.  It regards him as a human being.

exactly like some Christians.
Your point?

[Dicky Underpants]

Seb - the problem with all these references is that Mormonism does not regard Jesus as one with God.  It regards him as a human being.

However, your original statement was "...the Book of Mormon which, save for mentioning Jesus at a couple of points". It does help if we just stick to the question of truth or untruth of statements made.

As for what mainstream Mormonism actually teaches, that is something different again - as you've rightly pointed out. Their general attitude to Christ is not the same as that of mainstream Trinitarian Christianity - even though there are some definitive statements in Joe Smith's concoction which expressly support the Trinitarian view (the Bible is just as fluid in this matter). There may even be some branch of the Mormon faith which does hold such views - I'm not sure about the FLDS' attitude toward such matters, though polygamy is certainly practised in the backwoods of Utah, and the odious Warren Jeffs has been convincingly shown to have been involved in all kinds of vile practices (as this thread suggests). His involvement in enforcing the marriage of Elissa Wall* makes harrowing reading.

There seems to have been a tendency to evoke a number of Old Testament beliefs and practices in even mainstream Mormonism, and the daughter of the revered Hugh Nibley claims to have resuscitated childhood memories of sexual abuse by her father, who seemed to be re-enacting some ritual relating to the Abraham and Isaac episode.

*Stolen Innocence by Elissa Wall

[floo]

Seb - the problem with all these references is that Mormonism does not regard Jesus as one with God. It regards him as a human being.

Which he was.

[Khatru]

So because they mention Jesus Christ, they are Christian. That's too funny, and very stunted.

Now get educated.

http://www.4truth.net/fourtruthpbnew.aspx?pageid=8589952801

http://www.bible-truth.org/arelds.htm

You use the word Christian by way of reference to those who are most successful at imitating the personality of Jesus.  I use the word to cover all those who believe in the imagined divinity of Jesus and who call themselves Christian

Of course, who cares what Jesus was supposed to have done?  What matters is what people opt to do with their Christianity.

Christians appear to be wholly unable to assimilate this.  I can pretty much guarantee that a Christian will post again to one of us that so-and-so (usually a Catholic but sometimes a Mormon and sometimes Hitler) isn't/wasn't a true Christian.

You know what?  I have no interest whatsoever in what people who call themselves Christians believe, say or do as long as it has no impact on my life.  Remember - a true/real Christian isn't whatever hypothetical person you happen to refer to - it's the Christians I encounter in real life.