Author Topic: Alpha  (Read 20266 times)

Nearly Sane

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Re: Alpha
« Reply #50 on: February 29, 2016, 01:21:37 PM »
A teacher's private and personal beliefs - religious, political, moral or otherwise - are supposed to stay private and personal. A teacher's job is to educate by teaching the curriculum.

Indeed, but comments on the message board are not evidence that Hope does anything other than a completely satisfactory teacher in terms of what he does.

Shaker

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Re: Alpha
« Reply #51 on: February 29, 2016, 01:22:39 PM »
Indeed, but comments on the message board are not evidence that Hope does anything other than a completely satisfactory teacher in terms of what he does.
Completely agree - there's no evidence whatever that Hope acts otherwise. I wouldn't have made the comment that john did.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

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Re: Alpha
« Reply #52 on: February 29, 2016, 01:27:16 PM »
Likewise, Brownie.  Knowing the folk at HTB as I do, this doesn't match my knowledge of their way of thinking.

Is it my old pp that you are accusing of lying? Or me?

Nearly Sane

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Re: Alpha
« Reply #53 on: February 29, 2016, 01:34:24 PM »
It is fine for people to believe in a faith but proselytising, especially where children are concerned, is always WRONG!

What do you mean by 'proselytising'? Are parents wrong to bring up their children in their religion?

Nearly Sane

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Re: Alpha
« Reply #54 on: February 29, 2016, 01:43:13 PM »
On the overall subject, I have always found the general advertising for Alpha to be a bit disingenuous. I had many years ago considered going if it was meant to be a genuinely open attempt to look at the big questions as some adverts put it, but when I became aware of the actual approach, other than a somewhat egocentric interest in going to show why their approach was hopelessly biased and at best indicative of a misunderstanding of the historical method and what constitutes evidence, couldn't see a point.


There are many people on the earth doing many things worse than Alpha and criticism of it seems more appropriate from those who already believe. One of things that comes across in Butterfield's account is that people seem to feel it allows them to talk about their beliefs in a forum where they are given attention. It strikes me that for many on here that the message board forms a similar function, even with added swearing.

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Re: Alpha
« Reply #55 on: February 29, 2016, 01:43:28 PM »
What do you mean by 'proselytising'? Are parents wrong to bring up their children in their religion?

Yes, if they force it on them as happened to my husband and myself. We let our kids decide for themselves.

2Corrie

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Re: Alpha
« Reply #56 on: February 29, 2016, 01:50:21 PM »
I know a little about the Alpha course, in the form it was in the 1990s up to 2000.  It may have changed since then.   There was an Alpha course at a big church in North London and I helped out with some of it.  I'd previously read the Nicky Gumbel books and seen some videos of him speaking.  The idea of Alpha was, and maybe is, to reinforce existing Christians and give information to seekers.  It all started at Holy Trinity Brompton (who had the 'Toronto Blessing'), where Nicky Gumbel was a curate or vicar, Sandy Miller being the main vicar.

Each meeting started off with a very pleasant meal, we watched a video and then discussion groups were formed.  We read bits of the Bible and prayed, it ended with prayer.  Everything was friendly and quite relaxed.

Towards the end of the course there was a weekend away at which it was hoped people would receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.  I never went to anything like that but heard about it from those who did, some of whom had been on a couple of weekends.  Apparently there was a few who were 'slain in the spirit'.  That was considered a satisfactory conclusion to the Alpha course.

What bothered me about Alpha was the fact that many 'seekers' came along looking for friendship and the friendship was conditional on them becoming Christians.  It appeared to me that those who were still unsure or not interested in Christianity at the end of the course were no longer befriended by the Alpha helpers.  They'd obviously be pleasant and speak to them if they bumped into them but during the course they were really involved.  That seemed false to me.  If you like someone and befriend them, you do so regardless of what they believe.  I felt sorry for those who thought they had made friends and then found they were out in the cold.

Just my impressions, I'm sure others have had different experiences.  I wasn't interested in going along to Alpha again.

I think you'vs mentioned just about every reason I'd give Alpha a wide berth. Along with anything else which has its roots in Toronto ...

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Nearly Sane

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Re: Alpha
« Reply #57 on: February 29, 2016, 01:54:27 PM »
Yes, if they force it on them as happened to my husband and myself. We let our kids decide for themselves.

What does 'force' it on them mean? Taking them to church? Saying what you believe, and saying tha you think it's right? In which case did you allow your children to decide their own moral system?

Shaker

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Re: Alpha
« Reply #58 on: February 29, 2016, 01:55:50 PM »
On the overall subject, I have always found the general advertising for Alpha to be a bit disingenuous. I had many years ago considered going if it was meant to be a genuinely open attempt to look at the big questions as some adverts put it, but when I became aware of the actual approach, other than a somewhat egocentric interest in going to show why their approach was hopelessly biased and at best indicative of a misunderstanding of the historical method and what constitutes evidence, couldn't see a point.
Consideration of those matters generally lumped together as "big questions" is endlessly fascinating - that's why we have people called philosophers who engage in the activity still even long after they're retired from any gainful employment. Disingenuous is exactly the right word for Alpha - the idea isn't so much to examine the big questions because you can do that within any framework; it's to see what off-the-peg answers Christianity (and a particular form of Christianity at that, one out of many) claims to supply to these questions and to believe those.

If somebody set up a course that really did live up to the remit of looking disinterestedly at the aforementioned big questions without adherence to any single point of view then I'd be first in line to sign up for it. 
« Last Edit: February 29, 2016, 02:02:56 PM by Shaker »
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

floo

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Re: Alpha
« Reply #59 on: February 29, 2016, 01:58:35 PM »
What does 'force' it on them mean? Taking them to church? Saying what you believe, and saying tha you think it's right? In which case did you allow your children to decide their own moral system?

I was forced to go to church even though I hated it, so was my husband that is WRONG. Religion has nothing to do with a child being brought up to know what is right and wrong!

Nearly Sane

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Re: Alpha
« Reply #60 on: February 29, 2016, 02:01:46 PM »
I was forced to go to church even though I hated it, so was my husband that is WRONG. Religion has nothing to do with a child being brought up to know what is right and wrong!

So you have proselytised your morality onto your children. Why is that any different?

I also think you do a huge dis-service to many religious people for whom their religion is entwined with their morality and their actions by making a statement that is so dismissive of them.

Shaker

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Re: Alpha
« Reply #61 on: February 29, 2016, 02:04:43 PM »
I also think you do a huge dis-service to many religious people for whom their religion is entwined with their morality and their actions by making a statement that is so dismissive of them.
That's deeply problematic to say the least, though. Arthur C. Clarke observed: "The greatest tragedy in mankind's entire history may be the hijacking of morality by religion," and he was right.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Alpha
« Reply #62 on: February 29, 2016, 02:10:24 PM »
That's deeply problematic to say the least, though. Arthur C. Clarke observed: "The greatest tragedy in mankind's entire history may be the hijacking of morality by religion," and he was right.

'observed', surely opined is better there. We tie our morality around many things, that religion is one of them, doesn't mean anything about hi-jacking. Religion strays between is and ought like a drunken ethicist but certainly part of its history seeks to deal with oughts. It's foolish to ignore this as Floo seems to do.

floo

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Re: Alpha
« Reply #63 on: February 29, 2016, 02:37:59 PM »
So you have proselytised your morality onto your children. Why is that any different?

I also think you do a huge dis-service to many religious people for whom their religion is entwined with their morality and their actions by making a statement that is so dismissive of them.

Morality and religion, hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm! Morality has NOTHING to do with religion, especially as the god of the Bible is totally immoral!

Nearly Sane

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Re: Alpha
« Reply #64 on: February 29, 2016, 02:44:03 PM »
Morality and religion, hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm! Morality has NOTHING to do with religion, especially as the god of the Bible is totally immoral!

That comment doesn't make internal sense. 

Surely you must be slightly aware that for many people their religion and morality are entwined?
« Last Edit: February 29, 2016, 02:51:28 PM by Nearly Sane »

Shaker

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Re: Alpha
« Reply #65 on: February 29, 2016, 02:55:46 PM »
That comment doesn't make internal sense. 

Surely you must be slightly aware that for many people their religion and morality and entwined?
We know that it is; the issue is whether that in itself makes any sense.

To me of course it doesn't. It's a wretchedly bad idea. As soon as you take morality - matters of the weal and woe, the happiness and unhappiness of sentient beings - and place it outside of real life, investing it in an unknown, unseen, unevidenced realm peopled by equally unknown, unseen and unevidenced beings, you've effectively written off any moral sense worthy of the name. Morality becomes about appeasing and placating an unseen realm of unevidenced beings, typically with a great big one at the top of the food chain. Morality becomes a matter of pleasing and pandering to the assumed wants and wishes of said beings rather than what's good or bad for real beings, real beings like you and me and a sheep.

I can't be persuaded that anybody who has not poisoned their moral sense with religion would think that, for example, slicing off bits of the genitalia of newborns would be a splendid idea, or murdering people for believing something different to yourself. That last example is very far from being exclusive to religion alone; the common factor is that morality is divorced from real life - the betterment of actual lives - and resides in some principle deemed to be so far above real life that it can't be challenged, criticised or questioned. Whether it's God or The Party or the Fatherland, it's all the same madness. With something as clearly and unambiguously positive as allowing same-sex couples to marry, for instance, there's a very clear reason why the overwhelming majority of the opposition to it comes from religious quarters.
« Last Edit: February 29, 2016, 03:01:33 PM by Shaker »
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Alpha
« Reply #66 on: February 29, 2016, 03:00:06 PM »
We know that it is; the issue is whether that in itself makes any sense.

To me of course it doesn't. It's a wretchedly bad idea. As soon as you take morality - matters of the weal and woe, the happiness and unhappiness of sentient beings - and place it outside of real life, investing it in an unknown, unseen, unevidenced realm peopled by equally unknown, unseen and unevidenced beings, you've effectively written off any moral sense worthy of the name. Morality becomes about appeasing and placating an unseen realm of unevidenced beings, typically with a great big one at the top of the food chain. Morality becomes a matter of pleasing and pandering to the assumed wants and wishes of said beings rather than what's good or bad for real beings, real beings like you and me and a sheep.

I can't be persuaded that anybody who has not poisoned their moral sense with religion would think that, for example, slicing off bits of the genitalia of newborns would be a splendid idea, or murdering people for believing something different to yourself.

Lots of people I know thought it good to slice bits of the genitals of children for cultural reasons. As murdering for believing something different,are we just ignoring ideologies or reclassifying them as religion?

Shaker

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Re: Alpha
« Reply #67 on: February 29, 2016, 03:01:56 PM »
See edited post which I was amending while you were writing. As for this:


Quote
Lots of people I know thought it good to slice bits of the genitals of children for cultural reasons.
... which would have been a religious reason initially. Something that starts out as a religious value often filters down, over many centuries or even millennia of history, to become absorbed into a cultural value whose religious basis can often be largely forgotten. Think Christmas, for example, for the vast majority an entirely secularised public holiday with no religious component at all. A colossal amount of secular Jewish culture fits this mould. On the other hand I don't know of a single example where the process runs in the opposite direction, i.e. where a cultural value ends up as a religious value.

Quote
As murdering for believing something different,are we just ignoring ideologies or reclassifying them as religion?
Nobody has ever come up with a single definition of the term religion that everybody signs up to, so it's not as hard to reclassify something as a religion as you may think. A cult of personality, a sacred text or texts regarded as the definitive word of the founder/leader, a system of beliefs, an overarching worldview, the tendency to separate people into in-groups and out-groups - all these seem to be to be features of something that can be classified either as a religion or a religion-like or religionesque ideology.
« Last Edit: February 29, 2016, 03:11:04 PM by Shaker »
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Enki

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Re: Alpha
« Reply #68 on: February 29, 2016, 04:27:09 PM »
I'm sure other's experiences may well be different, but, as requested, these are some of the experiences of the two Alpha courses that I took part in.

On the first one, which was a CofE group, I attended alone and made it quite clear from the outset(i.e. at the communal meal where we were to be introduced to each other) that I was highly sceptical and that I was not a Christian. This seemed to cause no problem for the people there. At some point two people stood up to 'bear witness' I presume of how they had been 'saved' by their faith in the Christian God. Interestingly, both these people spoke in extremely emotional tones of how they had found God whilst going though a particularly stressful period in their lives, one, who had had a very upsetting divorce, and one who had lost someone dear to her. They spoke at some length on how they had found consolation in their new found faith.

Later we started the sessions proper. Each one started with a televised introduction featuring a certain Nicky Gumbel speaking to groups of what looked like pretty affluent young people, probably in his home church at Brompton. He came over as an extremely handsome, well groomed and extremely assured individual. I was considerably struck by the way that the TV cameras seemed to focus at times on his audience, seemingly to emphasise their enjoyment and delight in his spoken words. What he had to say, however, for me, was full of empty assertions, often backed by a liberal use of Biblical quotes.
I didn't really put much value by his prosletysing,  I was much more interested in the reactions of our group of circa 10 to 12 people. They all watched and listened in rapt attention. Very quickly I found out that they all were Christians, from the same church who knew each other well, and the reason they were at the Alpha course was simply to renew and refresh their faith. I was disappointed, hopefully expecting that there might be others there who, at the very least, were not committed Christians.

I was asked what I thought about the Nicky Gumbel 'sermons'. I told them I was not impressed at all. Rather than ask why I felt like this, my comments were met with a wall of seemingly embarrassed silence, and they quickly moved on.
Now I won't bore you with lots of details. Rather I will pick out several interesting 'moments' from the sessions which I attended.

1) I asked the question why they thought their particular faith was any more correct than say, Islam? I was met with the response that we were not here to talk about Islam, and my question was not answered at all.

2) In session 2, the lady who was leading the session gave out a printed sheet to each of us. On this sheet were so called 'sins'. Each time a sin was mentioned on the sheet, there were a possible two answers we could give. a) whether we had actually committed that sin b) whether we had committed that sin in our mind.
Such sins included, for instance, actions/thoughts of lust and actions/thoughts of stealing for example. I think the list included about 15/20 different sins.

People were asked, in turn, to comment on how many sins they felt they were guilty of either in thought and action. Everyone had something to say, and all admitted to some of these sins especially in thought rather than deed. Then it came to my turn. I was asked, and I simply said ,"None".
Back came the anticipated response: "Really, so you consider yourself perfect, do you?" to which I replied, "Good grief, no. I simply reject your idea of 'sin'. Many, if not all of these, are entirely dependent on circumstances as to whether I consider them wrong or not, and, even on that level, I could not easily give you such simplistic answers."
Again there was a silence. not even a challenge, and they moved on to the next person.

3) In one session, I can't remember which, we started talking about how we have this spiritual dimension, which comes from God. I brought up the point that actually we are animals descended from apelike ancestors. So, did they have a spiritual dimension too?  There was a chorus of disapproval at this, with one lady saying, "that isn't true because they haven't even been able to find the missing link, have they?"

As the sessions wore on, I realised that almost everything I said was causing consternation amongst some of the group. They obviously did not agree with me, and, furthermore, did not welcome anything I had to say. There was no attempt to actually respond to any of my questions. They simply moved on, safe in the knowledge that all the others were of like mind.

After the eighth session I decided to leave, partly because I could see I was upsetting some members of the group, and partly because there was no actual engagement of ideas, except, in my view, within the confines of their exceedingly limited mindset.

The second Alpha Course I attended with my wife. I wanted to see if a different set of people might have more open minds. my wife was intrigued by my experiences and wanted to attend just to see what it was all about.

This was again a CofE Alpha Course orignated bt the members of what they called a charismatic CofE church.

Again we found out very quickly that all the people who came to the sessions were committed Christians, and were involved, in some way, with their parent church. Again I was disappointed  but I was still prepared to take part, as was my wife.

Here I will point to two very interesting experiences:

1) In the first session we were told of the overwhelming evidence for the existence of Jesus, especially from the writings of Tacitus, Suetonius and Josephus. I suggested that the paucity of references to Jesus himself in these writings was not overwhelming, and even if there was such a person there was certainly no evidence, outside of the NT, that the things attributed to him were true. No real challenge came from the other members on this point. They simply emphasised the importance of the NT.

However, one member of the session, got up and, obviously in highly charged emotional state, stated that she had been on drugs and she had found Jesus, and how dare I challenge what she knew to be absolutely true. I simply said that we would just have to agree to disagree. That seemed to inflame her further and she continued her verbal assault. Several other members tried to calm her down, and eventually succeeded. I realised that already I was not the flavour of the month.

2) In Session 4 the focus was on prayer. Now, so far, my wife had said very little. Again I had challenged the group with a series of questions, which had largely been ignored. There came a short break, and then the leader of the group suggested that we break into two smaller groups to gather in two different rooms. The ladies would be in one group, the men in the other, and our subject would be the importance of prayer. I looked at my wife, we both smiled, and said we would be happy to go along with this, even though we both clearly suspected that this was simply a ruse to separate my wife from myself, in order to hopefully influence her without me being around.

As far as I was concerned I obviously confused some of the men, because I said I have nothing against prayer to some extent, as I could see that it may have beneficial effects on the person praying, especially if the prayer was regarding the health and well being of the person prayed for. I did also say, of course, that the actual act of praying showed not the slightest evidence that their God existed.

However, after talking to my wife, later, she told me this:

One lady had told the other people there that some years back she and her husband had really wanted the house that they now lived in. Unfortunately, someone had made an offer on this house, which had been provisionally accepted, so they had little chance of getting it themselves. So she had prayed to God that things might change and that they, themselves, might be successful. And, indeed, the other person had had difficulties raising the mortgage, so they eventually acquired the house they were after, and the one she lived in today. She put this down to the power of prayer. My wife simply asked about the person who had had difficulties raising the mortgage. Did God not look kindly upon him because he hadn't prayed, then?


I won't bore you with any more. Suffice it to say that, after Session 6, we received a phone call saying that due to various commitments, some of the people had dropped out, and the Alpha Course wasn't going to continue. I think that that was probably a good thing, as both of us were now beginning to be bored with it.
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Shaker

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Re: Alpha
« Reply #69 on: February 29, 2016, 04:54:14 PM »
Well three cheers to enki for putting so much time and effort into a superbly detailed and informative post. Hats off, sir.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Brownie

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Re: Alpha
« Reply #70 on: February 29, 2016, 04:58:17 PM »
Thank you for that enki, it's very, very interesting indeed.

I too thought Nicky Gumbel appeared charming and handsome but by the time I had seen him, on video, a few times I could almost have smacked him round the mouth.  I say ''almost'' because I'm not given to violent outbursts, I just cannot think of any other way to describe how I felt about him.  There was something too smooth, too sugary about his deliverance for my taste.

Something else which struck me forcibly about the videos was the congregation listening to Mr Gumbel.  I knew that Alpha was run in prisons and at that time knew a chaplaincy helper who organised and ran the programme for a prison.  I couldn't imagine the vast majority of inmates having much in common with any of Nicky Gumbel's audience.  Indeed HTB was known to be very white and middle class.  Nothing wrong with that of course but Christianity transcends race and class, and anything advertising Christianity must surely reflect this.

Your response to the ''sin'' questionnaire was spot on, imo.  I do not remember being given anything like that at the Alpha course I helped on so have no idea how I would have reacted to it.

You obviously didn't get as far as the ''Holy Spirit'' weekend enki  :).  Don't blame you a bit.
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Enki

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Re: Alpha
« Reply #71 on: February 29, 2016, 05:16:28 PM »
Well three cheers to enki for putting so much time and effort into a superbly detailed and informative post. Hats off, sir.

You are too kind, sir. :)

And,  you too, Brownie ;)
Sometimes I wish my first word was 'quote,' so that on my death bed, my last words could be 'end quote.'
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Shaker

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Re: Alpha
« Reply #72 on: February 29, 2016, 05:25:56 PM »
An interesting but saddening thing as identified by both Brownie and enki is that Alpha seems to draw emotionally labile people who have had, or still have, some sort of emotional distress - a bereavement, difficulties with drink and/or other drugs, mental illness or perhaps simple loneliness, etc. Doubtless this is common to religions generally but it's typically the sort of thing more usually associated with cults and NRMs (new religious movements).

No truly compassionate person would ever wish to separate such a person from whatever blandishments their religious adherence supplies (which in a great many cases - perhaps all? - probably stems from human contact and a sense of community rather than beliefs), but on the doxological level alone, to this particular sceptical brain a belief system which seems to become credible only in times of emotional upset and rootlessness rather than standing on its own merits has nothing to commend it.
« Last Edit: February 29, 2016, 05:31:47 PM by Shaker »
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Brownie

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Re: Alpha
« Reply #73 on: February 29, 2016, 05:36:05 PM »
You are welcome enki.

Someone above mentioned the dangers of proselytising, especially in relation to young children.  I don't think there is an Alpha course for children - I will be corrected if I'm wrong there.

My belief is that it is OK for anyone to tell their children what they (the parent(s) believe, they will soon get to know that anyway, but not to push it onto the child or children.  They must be free to find things out for themselves and ask questions.  If a child doesn't like going to church there's no point in forcing them, they will resent it later.  If they want to go, even if only for a while, fine;  if not, they don't have to.  It is abusive to make a child do something non essential which they hate.

Childhood should, imo, be a free and easy time of exploration, not being told what to think.  Also, having decent values is not dependent on following a religious code.

Times have changed though.  In bygone days the majority of adults held ''church'' in high esteem.  We are a more child-friendly society now - thankfully - and what was considered acceptable years ago is not now.
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Enki

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Re: Alpha
« Reply #74 on: February 29, 2016, 05:44:51 PM »
An interesting but saddening thing as identified by both Brownie and enki is that Alpha seems to draw emotionally labile people who have had, or still have, some sort of emotional distress - a bereavement, difficulties with drink and/or other drugs, mental illness or perhaps simple loneliness, etc. Doubtless this is common to religions generally but it's typically the sort of thing more usually associated with cults and NRMs (new religious movements).

No truly compassionate person would ever wish to separate such a person from whatever blandishments their religious adherence supplies (which in a great many cases - perhaps all? - probably stems from human contact and a sense of community rather than beliefs), but on the doxological level alone, to this particular sceptical brain a belief system which seems to become credible only in times of emotional upset and rootlessness rather than standing on its own merits has nothing to commend it.

What you say here, Shakes, I think is very true. My wife and I run two dances a week especially for the older generation, many of whom have lost a partner. There is a sense of real community and friendship between us all, but with no trappings of ideology/faith whatever. We simply function as human beings who love the social activity of dancing. Indeed two of our number, both of whom have lost a partner, have actually remarried. It is this social interaction and, for some of us, the sympathy/understanding of others, which, I think, is one of the reasons that makes it such a positive activity.
Sometimes I wish my first word was 'quote,' so that on my death bed, my last words could be 'end quote.'
Steven Wright