New set of Commandments

[Shaker]

Loving God should never be a commandment.

It's a literal impossibility more than anything else, I'd have thought. Real love isn't commandable. A semblance or pretence of it is, but not the real thing.

[Rhiannon]

It's a literal impossibility more than anything else, I'd have thought. Real love isn't commandable. A semblance or pretence of it is, but not the real thing.

Exactly. And even if love were commandable, forcing it is despicable.

[Sriram]

It's a literal impossibility more than anything else, I'd have thought. Real love isn't commandable. A semblance or pretence of it is, but not the real thing.

'Love' in this instance means 'respect'.....I think.  That is the Commandment that gives all the other Commandments the much needed authority. Otherwise, why would anyone bother?   Would anyone obey... if the UN issues guidelines on these Commandments? I don't think so!

[Shaker]

'Love' in this instance means 'respect'.....I think.  That is the Commandment that gives all the other Commandments the much needed authority. Otherwise, why would anyone bother?   Would anyone obey... if the UN issues guidelines on these Commandments? I don't think so!

The point still applies. With sufficiently unpleasant penalties for not showing it you can compel an impersonation of respect, but not actual respect. Tyrants and dictators tend to work this way.

[Sriram]

The point still applies. With sufficiently unpleasant penalties for not showing it you can compel an impersonation of respect, but not actual respect. Tyrants and dictators tend to work this way.

It doesn't matter. Obedience of the laws and maintaining social order are important. If that happened...it serves the purpose.

[Shaker]

It doesn't matter. Obedience of the laws and maintaining social order are important. If that happened...it serves the purpose.

But your OP included the lines:

One point I want to highlight is that the Commandments should not be merely for maintaining social order. That is not enough. The Commandments should also enable people to develop themselves as individuals, help them become more civilized and evolve mentally and intellectually beyond our present condition.

[Sriram]

Yes...so how does that change anything? Those who can have genuine respect will grow anyway. Others may obey due to fear...but that will still control their base instincts and thereby help society. It will also help them to grow the way children obey due to fear....but in later years realize the reason for the rules. Either way obeying the Laws is important.

[Shaker]

Yes...so how does that change anything? Those who can have genuine respect will grow anyway. Others may obey due to fear...but that will still control their base instincts and thereby help society. It will also help them to grow the way children obey due to fear....but in later years realize the reason for the rules. Either way obeying the Laws is important.

I appear not to regard keeping people in line by fear as a good thing as you do, or am as hung up on a legalistic system of rules to be obeyed.

[Sriram]

I appear not to regard keeping people in line by fear as a good thing as you do, or am as hung up on a legalistic system of rules to be obeyed.

How do you think the present Police and legal system maintain order....through heartfelt respect for discipline??!!  LOL!

For most people its always fear that elicits obedience and discipline. Very few people would be able to maintain order and discipline on their own. 

[Bubbles]

I appear not to regard keeping people in line by fear as a good thing as you do, or am as hung up on a legalistic system of rules to be obeyed.

At the end of the day, to protect the weak and vunerable, I am not adverse to the use of a bit of fear and force.

If, as has happened before , a gunman opens fire on a school of children or where the public are in danger, I think you have to shoot him or make him fear the consequences of his actions.

If fear deters anyone from harming people, I'm all for it.

Within that narrow band, fear is a useful tool.

Half our problems stem from the fact our criminals have no fear of consequences.

My priority would be protecting the innocent, not about worrying about making them ( criminals) scared.


If it was down to me, a proportion of our society would be very scared!

 

[Rhiannon]

Yes...so how does that change anything? Those who can have genuine respect will grow anyway. Others may obey due to fear...but that will still control their base instincts and thereby help society. It will also help them to grow the way children obey due to fear....but in later years realize the reason for the rules. Either way obeying the Laws is important.

Actually this is rather terrifying. The absolute last thing any parent should want is for their child to obey through fear. I know someone who thought this was this ok because it was how they were taught to think by their father; the pain this has caused others is horrendous and it didn't keep them on the straight and narrow anyway.

If you take that into wider society then you have taught people that fear rules and it is how to get what you want. It is a society where might is right; yes, the mighty may decide to protect the vulnerable but equally they may decide that the vulnerable doesn't need to include the different. And who or what will be considered vulnerable and who the danger? Ultimately a society controlled by fear makes each and every one of its members vulnerable.

[Sriram]

Actually this is rather terrifying. The absolute last thing any parent should want is for their child to obey through fear. I know someone who thought this was this ok because it was how they were taught to think by their father; the pain this has caused others is horrendous and it didn't keep them on the straight and narrow anyway.

If you take that into wider society then you have taught people that fear rules and it is how to get what you want. It is a society where might is right; yes, the mighty may decide to protect the vulnerable but equally they may decide that the vulnerable doesn't need to include the different. And who or what will be considered vulnerable and who the danger? Ultimately a society controlled by fear makes each and every one of its members vulnerable.

And I thought all this was just common sense!!!

I don't think you realize how many laws & social mores YOU would break but for fear of the police and social disapproval.  Think about it! 

[Rhiannon]

And I thought all this was just common sense!!!

I don't think you realize how many laws & social mores YOU would break but for fear of the police and social disapproval.  Think about it!

Sriram, by now you should know that I of all people really don't give a shit about social disapproval. Otherwise there are some laws I comply with so I don't get fined - I prefer to spend my money on wine and books rather than give it to the government. Aside from that as I have no urge to murder, assault, rob, steal, peddle stolen goods or crash my speeding Yeti the state really doesn't need to frighten me over those.

[Gordon]

Unless you are engaged in active criminality and realise you are running the risk of severe-ish penalties I don't think fear comes into it.

I suspect that most people simply consent to be regulated regarding their routine (non-criminal) activities even if they don't always agree with the regulations or stick to them rigidly, since they recognise that some form of regulation is useful and practical even if not perfect, such as those involving traffic.

[Bubbles]

Funny thing is, looking back, the teacher that could always bring his class into order, who no one gave cheek to, was actually the one we all feared a little bit.

Not that he ever did anything much to give us that sense of fear, just his commanding presence.

If he was patrolling the school corridors and you were skiving, he was the one you hid from, and yes feared

But he was also the one you respected.

[Rhiannon]

Why on earth would anyone admire or respect someone who makes them frightened? Control through fear is abusive and it has no place in education as plenty of children will have to endure control through fear at home.

[Bubbles]

Why on earth would anyone admire or respect someone who makes them frightened? Control through fear is abusive and it has no place in education as plenty of children will have to endure control through fear at home.

Its not abusive, he never abused anyone.

Its called leadership.

Its about children not being willing to call him out.


A lost art 

He had been in the army so I guess he learned to lead and command respect there.

I suppose you could call it " an air of authority".

He set boundaries, every child knew exactly where they stood. He was fair and everyone knew that.

But that little bit of fear/uncertainty was there.

Never saw him hit or abuse any child.

It was easy to spot the teachers who didn't generate a bit of fear, they were the ones getting kicked in the nuts and their classes were like riots.

Did you not have teachers with authority who you were slightly scared of? Whose classes didn't degenerate into chaos ?

Who you thought, " well maybe I better actually do the homework for" instead of thinking "sod it"?

Even when my two boys were at school there were teachers they respected and feared a bit.

And ones they couldn't give a monkeys about.

That little bit of fear and uncertainty, plays a part.

Children don't respect an adult they can walk all over, and try it on with student teachers because they think them easy prey.

It's not abuse, its authority.


It's a quality a person either has or not, you can tell quite quickly if you meet someone like that.

They make good leaders and people happily follow them.

They have a natural authority without being irritating, it's a skill.

No other posters had teachers like that?

🌹

[Rhiannon]

Leading through fear? Give me a break.

[Shaker]

Leading through fear? Give me a break.

Strays uncomfortably close to slogans like "Work makes free" for my liking ...

[Aruntraveller]

Strays uncomfortably close to slogans like "Work makes free" for my liking ...

And that's straying uncomfortably close to Godwin 

[Shaker]

And that's straying uncomfortably close to Godwin 

I'll cope 

[Sriram]

Hi everyone,

If anyone here thinks that they are law abiding not because of fear of the law but from an innate sense of discipline or some thing like that....they are fooling themselves.

Of course, it is possible that a certain type of upbringing and culture over the years could have made discipline  and orderliness a habit in many people, such that they don't even realize anymore that they are following social and legal dictates. It is possible that they therefore consider themselves as somehow 'naturally law abiding'.   

If the entire police and legal system disappeared and children were born and brought up in an environment without fear of the law.....only then will people realize how important fear is in instilling a sense of discipline. There will be anarchy.

Let us not underestimate the power of fear in maintaining social order.

Cheers.

Sriram

[Aruntraveller]

Let us not underestimate the power of fear in maintaining social order.

Yes I believe this was one of the prime motivators in the former USSR.

And of course nowadays such humane groups as IS are using it too.

[Rhiannon]

To be fair we do keep hearing how much more orderly Iraq was under Saddam Hussein.

[Bubbles]

Hi everyone,

If anyone here thinks that they are law abiding not because of fear of the law but from an innate sense of discipline or some thing like that....they are fooling themselves.

Of course, it is possible that a certain type of upbringing and culture over the years could have made discipline  and orderliness a habit in many people, such that they don't even realize anymore that they are following social and legal dictates. It is possible that they therefore consider themselves as somehow 'naturally law abiding'.   

If the entire police and legal system disappeared and children were born and brought up in an environment without fear of the law.....only then will people realize how important fear is in instilling a sense of discipline. There will be anarchy.

Let us not underestimate the power of fear in maintaining social order.

Cheers.

Sriram

They won't get it Sriram.

It's part of the reason we have an issue in the uk, people no longer fear what other people think, because they don't respect other people.

Fear can take lots of forms.

Fear of letting down someone you respect.

Fear of being shown up in front of ones peers.

Unless children are taught that there are unpleasant consequences to an action like stealing, they won't find a reason not to do it in future.

Unfortunately for some, any reprimand is a form of abuse, even telling your child off or making it take back the thing it has stolen back with an apology, is abuse.

They  even see that as abuse and say you are being cruel by making the child do it, shaming them,and take it back.

Shaming has also become abuse now.

Absolute rubbish, IMO.

Teachers can't even defend themselves from children now, for fears of being labelled abusive.

Sadly it's the ones that scream abuse, in a passive/aggressive way that are actually the abusers.

They are causing young people untold harm by not giving them boundaries.

Did you know that passive/aggressive attacks of shouting abuse can be used as a manipulative weapon?

It can.

I've noticed it a few times.


I suspect it is used by people who are afraid that they are potential doormats/victims, so they bully others before it can happen.

Anyway what's sad in all this, children are not being set boundaries.

But I actually agree Sriram, I do think you have to respect the values and you are right, when I used the term love a lot of that love involved respect.

Without respect, there is no love.