New set of Commandments

[Aruntraveller]

Anyway what's sad in all this, children are not being set boundaries.

But I actually agree Sriram, I do think you have to respect the values and you are right, when I used the term love a lot of that love involved respect.

Without respect, there is no love.

You can set boundaries without invoking fear.

So to respect values you have to make people fearful?

And then they will feel the love?

Bizarre argument.

[Bubbles]

You can set boundaries without invoking fear.

So to respect values you have to make people fearful?

And then they will feel the love?

Bizarre argument.

There are many different types of fear.

One is the fear of friends and family finding out about something we have done wrong, and their disappointment in us.

That's also a fear.

If you take away accountability, and all fear and reasons for not doing something, and the stakes are high enough, then quite a lot of people will go for it.

For example if someone could make £5 million by smuggling in drugs and you took away the fear altogether ( of prison,people finding out, loss of face )then a hell of a lot more people would do it, than already do it.

Therefore the only way to deter someone,  is to ensure the consqenses are enough to make them fear it.

It doesn't work on everyone, because if the stakes are high enough you will always get some chancers, but it makes the majority think twice. 

[Bubbles]

To be fair we do keep hearing how much more orderly Iraq was under Saddam Hussein.

Yes well maybe that's better than just smugly thinking we did them a favour.

Here is one Iraqi opinion.

http://www.businessinsider.com/heres-what-life-in-iraq-was-like-under-saddam-hussein-2014-7?IR=T

[Udayana]

India is a good example. The caste system maintains good order in society even though it is illegal! Everyone knows their place. Social norms ensure that there is no corruption, exploitation or other anti-social activity.

Women are modest and refrain from baring themselves in public thus there is no risk of sexual molestation or rape, even kissing is strongly discouraged. In some cities there are even gangs of the devout roaming around making sure everyone is well behaved. Homosexuality is unmentionable, so doesn't exist. All children are devoted to their studies and never fail in their exams. All old people are well taken care of, so old women don't have to scrounge a living by working as labourers on building sites!

And so on... the wonderful benefits of fear and social disapproval

Maybe we should have more fear here, to make sure teenage girls are kept safe off the streets and so on?

Look ...

Idealistic sets of rules which can be interpreted at whim and used to force people to conform to the will of charismatic leaders are no way to run society. What is needed are democratically agreed laws that are enforced fairly and transparently by accountable police and judicial systems

[Bubbles]

Sriram, by now you should know that I of all people really don't give a shit about social disapproval. Otherwise there are some laws I comply with so I don't get fined - I prefer to spend my money on wine and books rather than give it to the government. Aside from that as I have no urge to murder, assault, rob, steal, peddle stolen goods or crash my speeding Yeti the state really doesn't need to frighten me over those.

Why on earth would you assume Sriram should and would know this about you?

You actually show in this post that you actually care very much, it comes across as faintly outraged that Sriram didn't know this about you.

But why would he?

He's not psychic.

 

[Rhiannon]

I don't respect anybody that I fear. People who command respect through fear are bullies. Makes no difference if they are in the side of what you consider to be the good guys or not.

I had a huge amount of respect for some of my teachers at school. The ones who were good at their job, knew how to capture a class' imagination, show empathy and respect for their pupils.

Fear and love do not belong together.

[Rhiannon]

Why on earth would you assume Sriram should and would know this about you?

You actually show in this post that you actually care very much, it comes across as faintly outraged that Sriram didn't know this about you.

But why would he?

He's not psychic.

 

No, that's what you want to see. I'm assuming everyone on this forum isn't a murderer or mugs old ladies and I think Sriram does the same, not just for me but for everybody else.

Don't stray into attacking the poster not the post, Rose.

[Bubbles]

Unless you are engaged in active criminality and realise you are running the risk of severe-ish penalties I don't think fear comes into it.

I suspect that most people simply consent to be regulated regarding their routine (non-criminal) activities even if they don't always agree with the regulations or stick to them rigidly, since they recognise that some form of regulation is useful and practical even if not perfect, such as those involving traffic.

Yes, your post seems the most measured response. But I think fear does come into it.

Different sorts of fear.

I think we are conditioned from birth with a lot of it, some people more than others.

It's like with driving, we all stick to most of the rules of the road,most of the time.

However drink/driving is something they have used fear over.

Think of the awful adverts of car crashes and peoples death and the drunken drivers responsibility..............

That's making us afraid, that if we drink and drive, we will cause that.

It's still fear, and those adverts were horrible.

The other one is the mobile where the person at home talking to the driver suddenly gets cut off because the driver has had a serious accident, another advert where fear is used.

That one plays on the fear of us being instrumental in causing the death of someone we love.

I find that one harrowing.

That's two ways the law puts fear into us, to obey the law.

There are lots more.

Can you see?

[Sriram]

I don't respect anybody that I fear. People who command respect through fear are bullies. Makes no difference if they are in the side of what you consider to be the good guys or not.

I had a huge amount of respect for some of my teachers at school. The ones who were good at their job, knew how to capture a class' imagination, show empathy and respect for their pupils.

Fear and love do not belong together.

You are getting too much into semantics. Fear can obviously be taken to extremes like everything else. But fear is what normally establishes order. 

Fear is what makes a toddler drink his milk. Fear is what makes a 5 year old go to bed on time. Fear is what makes a teenager avoid drinking and driving. Fear is what makes a boy avoid forcing himself on his girlfriend. Fear is what makes people drive carefully. Fear is what makes people pay their taxes.

Fear doesn't mean terror... for God's sake! Get real!

[Rhiannon]

No, don't need a state sponsored advert to make me frightened of killing someone because I'm pissed behind the wheel. I have a ... oh what's the word... oh yes, a conscience for that.

[Rhiannon]

India is a good example. The caste system maintains good order in society even though it is illegal! Everyone knows their place. Social norms ensure that there is no corruption, exploitation or other anti-social activity.

Women are modest and refrain from baring themselves in public thus there is no risk of sexual molestation or rape, even kissing is strongly discouraged. In some cities there are even gangs of the devout roaming around making sure everyone is well behaved. Homosexuality is unmentionable, so doesn't exist. All children are devoted to their studies and never fail in their exams. All old people are well taken care of, so old women don't have to scrounge a living by working as labourers on building sites!

And so on... the wonderful benefits of fear and social disapproval

Maybe we should have more fear here, to make sure teenage girls are kept safe off the streets and so on?

Look ...

Idealistic sets of rules which can be interpreted at whim and used to force people to conform to the will of charismatic leaders are no way to run society. What is needed are democratically agreed laws that are enforced fairly and transparently by accountable police and judicial systems

Nice post, Uday.

[Bubbles]

I don't respect anybody that I fear. People who command respect through fear are bullies. Makes no difference if they are in the side of what you consider to be the good guys or not.

I had a huge amount of respect for some of my teachers at school. The ones who were good at their job, knew how to capture a class' imagination, show empathy and respect for their pupils.

Fear and love do not belong together.

I wouldn't agree.

I remember bringing my other half home and making him something on  toast, I was so nervous I dropped it on the floor. ( this was when we first got together)

Then I tried to cook him a special meal and was so uptight I burnt the flipping chicken to a crisp.

I couldn't sleep, or eat.

I was so self concious and wanted to impress, I even managed to accidentally spray a can of beer all over him. ( must have shook it by mistake)

Until I was married my husband thought I couldn't cook, I could, but was so nervous when he was about, I was a disaster.

It was a sort of fear, that early love.

It's the sort of fear that makes you look like a total dipstick 


None of it was his fault. 

It wasn't something he did.

I'm not alone, I have friends who have related their tales of woe about visiting potential inlaws for the first time, one unfortunate even fell downstairs.

 

[Shaker]

Fear is what makes a toddler drink his milk.

Here in Britain we call it hunger.

[Udayana]

...
Fear is what makes a toddler drink his milk. Fear is what makes a 5 year old go to bed on time. Fear is what makes a teenager avoid drinking and driving. Fear is what makes a boy avoid forcing himself on his girlfriend. Fear is what makes people drive carefully. Fear is what makes people pay their taxes.
...

Really? ... I don't know what planet you are living on Sriram.

[Bubbles]

No, don't need a state sponsored advert to make me frightened of killing someone because I'm pissed behind the wheel. I have a ... oh what's the word... oh yes, a conscience for that.

You missed the point!

The advert is using fear to get its message across.

It plays on your conscience to do so.


Once it was socially acceptable to drink and drive, people still had consciences.

It just didn't occur to them it was a problem.

seat belts is another one that didn't occur to people until the state used adverts to prick their conscience.

[Sriram]

Truly amazing......but you people seem to be frightened of being frightened!!  You are in denial!  LOL!

[Bubbles]

Truly amazing......but you people seem to be frightened of being frightened!!  You are in denial!  LOL!

I'm amazed some of them can't see the manipulation of their minds by media and adverts.

Especially when done so obviously with mobiles etc. It's not exactly subliminal.

They are steered into what ought to prick their concious and they think they got there on their own.

 
Amazing!

[Bubbles]

Sriram this is the advert I mean

http://youtu.be/3iqCcMDByLA

Most definately uses fear to enforce the law. What say you?

It scares me just looking at it, harrowing.

Rhiannon

That's using fear to control your behaviour.

It doesn't matter how nicely you wrap it, convince yourself you would have got there on your own.

Would you change a cd? Drink? Eat? Look at a map? While driving?

It's fear....... They  just haven't got round to the others yet!

Psychology, the psychology of fear and controlling behaviour in the population.

It works!

Especially when they are in denial 

[Rhiannon]

You missed the point!

The advert is using fear to get its message across.

It plays on your conscience to do so.


Once it was socially acceptable to drink and drive, people still had consciences.

It just didn't occur to them it was a problem.

seat belts is another one that didn't occur to people until the state used adverts to prick their conscience.

Right. So without these adverts we'd all drink drive and not wear seat belts. We are clearly a nation of ignorant arseholes who don't have the intelligence to progress from the 1960s.

[Rhiannon]

sriram this is the advert I mean

http://youtu.be/3iqCcMDByLA

Most definately uses fear to enforce the law. What say you?

It scares me just looking at it, harrowing.

Rhiannon

That's using fear to control your behaviour.

It doesn't matter how nicely you wrap it, convince yourself you would have got there on your own.

Would you change a cd? Drink? Eat? Look at a map? While driving?

It's fear....... They  just haven't got round to the others yet!

Rose,

That's you talking bullshit.

I know I can't control my car properly if I'm farting about with music or sweets. So I don't do it. End of.

[Rhiannon]

I wouldn't agree.

I remember bringing my other half home and making him something on  toast, I was so nervous I dropped it on the floor. ( this was when we first got together)

Then I tried to cook him a special meal and was so uptight I burnt the flipping chicken to a crisp.

I couldn't sleep, or eat.

I was so self concious and wanted to impress, I even managed to accidentally spray a can of beer all over him. ( must have shook it by mistake)

Until I was married my husband thought I couldn't cook, I could, but was so nervous when he was about, I was a disaster.

It was a sort of fear, that early love.

It's the sort of fear that makes you look like a total dipstick 


None of it was his fault. 

It wasn't something he did.

I'm not alone, I have friends who have related their tales of woe about visiting potential inlaws for the first time, one unfortunate even fell downstairs.

 

I shall refrain from saying what's going through my mind right now. 

[Shaker]

I bet it's the same as I was thinking though ...

[Bubbles]

Right. So without these adverts we'd all drink drive and not wear seat belts. We are clearly a nation of ignorant arseholes who don't have the intelligence to progress from the 1960s.

Probably.
We still change CDs eat drink I've even seen someone apply lipstick while driving.

The government uses adverts to push us in the direction it wants us to go, for our own safety maybe.

But if the government hadn't brought up the topic and insisted we wear seat belts, we still wouldn't have had them now.

To do this, it used a fair amount of fear to get its message across.

Same with mobile phones.

Other countries are still using them while driving.

An American in some states doesn't have to wear one

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seat_belt_legislation_in_the_United_States


Does that make them all ignorant arseholes who don't have the intelligence to progress from the 1960s?

Some places are more strict than others about drink driving as well.

It doesn't change the fact that these laws have been reinforced by adverts creating fear to control our actions.

[Bubbles]

I shall refrain from saying what's going through my mind right now. 

Probably just as well, because I think you see everything as a form of abuse.

You haven't fallen in love with someone and felt how nervous that feeling can be?

Initially anyway, until it deepens.

[Bubbles]

I bet it's the same as I was thinking though ...

Hopefully not.