Author Topic: The N H S Chaplaincy again  (Read 18878 times)

ippy

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The N H S Chaplaincy again
« on: February 28, 2016, 03:15:07 PM »
http://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/feb/22/spirit-of-healthcare-the-nhs-chaplains-religion

I've no objection to any religious person being a hospital chaplain, I just think whatever religion supplies the chaplain should be the ones financing their chaplain, it's not the taxpayers place to be involved with any religious practices including the newly placed humanist, at present financed by the N H S.

ippy

Humph Warden Bennett

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Re: The N H S Chaplaincy again
« Reply #1 on: February 28, 2016, 03:48:35 PM »
Most of the people who ask to see a chaplain are dying. I don't begrudge indirectly paying for this service.

Gordon

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Re: The N H S Chaplaincy again
« Reply #2 on: February 28, 2016, 04:05:30 PM »
Most of the people who ask to see a chaplain are dying. I don't begrudge indirectly paying for this service.

Me neither, and in a long NHS career I worked with several hospital chaplains and had the greatest respect for them all. I never found one who was intrusive, proselytising or insensitive and, in fact, I count one (a now retired Church of Scotland minister) as a personal friend.

Nearly Sane

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Re: The N H S Chaplaincy again
« Reply #3 on: February 28, 2016, 04:11:48 PM »
Me neither, and in a long NHS career I worked with several hospital chaplains and had the greatest respect for them all. I never found one who was intrusive, proselytising or insensitive and, in fact, I count one (a now retired Church of Scotland minister) as a personal friend.

I know a chaplain that a friend demanded not to be seen by, but don't think that is an argument against the service as a whole. For the buttons it costs, it seems more than worth the money.

ippy

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Re: The N H S Chaplaincy again
« Reply #4 on: February 28, 2016, 05:49:31 PM »
I would be the last person to grudge chaplaincy to anyone dying or for anything else it's the way religious organisations, just by chance, happen to find various ways of getting their hands on to government money, just a little here and another little bit there, like this little N H S number the Prison chaplaincy then the Services chaplaincy and before you know it it's not quite such a little bit when you add them all together, oh yes we finance their schools for them as well, oh yes free transport to religious schools but none for children of non-religious parents to the same school; yes the school bus fiddle practised by the various religions is well on it's way out but there are still a few getting away with it.

Isn't he mean grudging the sick, the prisoners and the services chaplaincy?

After all it's only a small amount in the overall scheme of things?

Well no I don't want to deny any of these things to the religious it would be wrong of me to deny these things to anybody, I just don't see why we should be paying, when grouped together these not so small amounts to or for religious organisations of any kind it's for those that want these religious services to pay, the not so small accumulated amounts,  for them themselves.

As for those that believe in pie in the sky, well that's fine by me, if you feel the need to spread your pie in the sky, that's fine by me too, just don't ask me to pay for your promotions.

ippy         
« Last Edit: March 26, 2016, 11:34:10 PM by ippy »

Brownie

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Re: The N H S Chaplaincy again
« Reply #5 on: February 28, 2016, 06:16:01 PM »
Hospital chaplains do not proselytise, they merely walk alongside people and that can be comforting.  If they were not funded by the NHS I daresay churches would set up a fund to pay them for their time.  Same with prison chaplaincies.
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Aruntraveller

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Re: The N H S Chaplaincy again
« Reply #6 on: February 28, 2016, 07:30:00 PM »
Quote
I just don't see why we should be paying, when grouped together these not so small amounts to or for religious organisations of any kind it's for those that want these religious services to pay, the not so small accumulated amounts,  for them themselves.

Ippy - I work in a large Trust and the directorate I work in also contains the Chaplaincy service. I can assure you it is a very, very, very small part of our budget. As a directorate we probably spend more on biro's than we do on the Chaplaincy service.

Weighing the small amount we spend against the comfort given, is for me a no-brainer - we continue to pay for the service. The NHS should be providing a holistic service to patients - if we can't be bothered to pay out for some small grain of comfort for patients at the end of their lives - whether or not we believe in God - we may just as well all pack up go home and say "You are on your fucking own".

I say this as a fully paid up atheist.
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OH MY WORLD!

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Re: The N H S Chaplaincy again
« Reply #7 on: February 29, 2016, 02:04:08 AM »
Ippy,
So what humanist org should be paying for this humanist chaplain? What church congregation do you want paying for the nondenominational chaplain? The police, military, hospitals all have a paid position of chaplain, it is not an outreach position/mission by any church.

Rhiannon

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Re: The N H S Chaplaincy again
« Reply #8 on: February 29, 2016, 12:20:13 PM »
I wasn't in favour of the NHS funding chaplains, but Trent's changed my mind. The only thing I don't like about it is that discrimination laws don't apply, so the NHS ends up discriminating against gay people because of the CofE's rules.

Samuel

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Re: The N H S Chaplaincy again
« Reply #9 on: February 29, 2016, 12:22:49 PM »

Weighing the small amount we spend against the comfort given, is for me a no-brainer - we continue to pay for the service. The NHS should be providing a holistic service to patients - if we can't be bothered to pay out for some small grain of comfort for patients at the end of their lives - whether or not we believe in God - we may just as well all pack up go home and say "You are on your fucking own".

I say this as a fully paid up atheist.

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ippy

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Re: The N H S Chaplaincy again
« Reply #10 on: February 29, 2016, 01:07:00 PM »
Ippy,
So what humanist org should be paying for this humanist chaplain? What church congregation do you want paying for the nondenominational chaplain? The police, military, hospitals all have a paid position of chaplain, it is not an outreach position/mission by any church.

I don't think the humanist should be paid for by the state either Woody, it's the whole principle that's wrong, not the amount of the funding.

ippy

Bubbles

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Re: The N H S Chaplaincy again
« Reply #11 on: March 01, 2016, 08:55:37 AM »
I wasn't in favour of the NHS funding chaplains, but Trent's changed my mind. The only thing I don't like about it is that discrimination laws don't apply, so the NHS ends up discriminating against gay people because of the CofE's rules.

Where does the NHS end up discriminating against gay people, because of the employment of a chaplain?

I don't think a chaplain would get the job if he discriminated.

I think the discrimination laws do apply, a chaplain has to deal with anyone, if asked regardless of sex, religion or none.

Most of the ones I've encountered have been so liberal in their ideas, they barely rate as Christian.


Bubbles

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Re: The N H S Chaplaincy again
« Reply #12 on: March 01, 2016, 09:03:04 AM »
Ippy - I work in a large Trust and the directorate I work in also contains the Chaplaincy service. I can assure you it is a very, very, very small part of our budget. As a directorate we probably spend more on biro's than we do on the Chaplaincy service.

Weighing the small amount we spend against the comfort given, is for me a no-brainer - we continue to pay for the service. The NHS should be providing a holistic service to patients - if we can't be bothered to pay out for some small grain of comfort for patients at the end of their lives - whether or not we believe in God - we may just as well all pack up go home and say "You are on your fucking own".

I say this as a fully paid up atheist.

Yes, it's just a little thing if patients want it.

I wish the end of life, experience could be made better.  It's a pity more people don't have access to a hospice or that hospitals don't have extra funding to deal with that side of things.





Bubbles

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Re: The N H S Chaplaincy again
« Reply #13 on: March 01, 2016, 09:09:05 AM »
I don't think the humanist should be paid for by the state either Woody, it's the whole principle that's wrong, not the amount of the funding.

ippy

What's wrong ippy, is you expect everyone else to conform to your prejudices, and do without a comforting and valuable service.

The service also caters for those who want that service, but don't have a formal religion, who don't want to call out some strange local vicar who they don't know ( who might be extreme or judgmental) but who just want to talk or have someone take the time to read something for them.

Nurses don't have the time.

Hospitals can be hard and cold at the best of times, the patient who is extremely vunerable, can just feel like a lump of meat that blood is taken from. Not because any one intended that, but the nurses are just overstretched.

Anything that softens the hospital experience is a plus.

The chaplaincy is the human side of hospitals, everyone else is too busy to give the sort of individual care they would like to.

Nurses don't have time to hold the hand of a dying patient or read their favourite poem or bible reading, chaplains do.

I think they do a great job.


« Last Edit: March 01, 2016, 09:17:04 AM by Rose »

ippy

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Re: The N H S Chaplaincy again
« Reply #14 on: March 01, 2016, 01:08:31 PM »
What's wrong ippy, is you expect everyone else to conform to your prejudices, and do without a comforting and valuable service.

The service also caters for those who want that service, but don't have a formal religion, who don't want to call out some strange local vicar who they don't know ( who might be extreme or judgmental) but who just want to talk or have someone take the time to read something for them.

Nurses don't have the time.

Hospitals can be hard and cold at the best of times, the patient who is extremely vunerable, can just feel like a lump of meat that blood is taken from. Not because any one intended that, but the nurses are just overstretched.

Anything that softens the hospital experience is a plus.

The chaplaincy is the human side of hospitals, everyone else is too busy to give the sort of individual care they would like to.

Nurses don't have time to hold the hand of a dying patient or read their favourite poem or bible reading, chaplains do.

I think they do a great job.

If you read my posts you will see that I have plainly stated that I am not wanting to curtail the chaplaincy service in any way and it's blindingly obvious that that it is an essential service, something else I've said or referred to previously.

Why do some of you think I want to do away with the chaplaincy service, or that I don't think that they are a bunch of really good eggs?

They are a very necessary and and usually a great bunch of dedicated people and I am greatfull for the service they render on a daily basis.

Right,I hope that misunderstanding is cleared up now; it's mostly the C of E supplying these chaplains and of course it's a good thing they do, supply them, but the C of E doesn't miss any oportuinity to get it's hands on government money where ever it can and although in relative terms, as pointed out by Torri and he's right, the funding is small beer in the overall figures of running the NHS.

If you stand back and look at all of these little sums, I have allready described just a few of them in my previous posts on this thread, there are a lot more of places where this religious bunch have got their fingers in the pie and when you start to add them together including the small sum from the NHS among them it no longer can be considered a small sum, that's the point I'm trying to make.

Don't think for one moment think these pies the church has it's fingers into are not seen as many, all be it individually small sums, subscriptions to the perpetuation of this rapidly becoming defunct organisation and as it goes further and further down the tubes they will be clinging on to this, as they se it, funding, as though their lives depend on them and it does, so why not deny them and help them on their well deserved way out?

By the way Rose, prejudice; I have made due consideration, about how the NHS chaplaincy should be funded, so tecnically my view of this isn't a prejudiced pov.

ippy
« Last Edit: March 01, 2016, 01:11:45 PM by ippy »

Bubbles

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Re: The N H S Chaplaincy again
« Reply #15 on: March 01, 2016, 01:38:03 PM »
If you read my posts you will see that I have plainly stated that I am not wanting to curtail the chaplaincy service in any way and it's blindingly obvious that that it is an essential service, something else I've said or referred to previously.

Why do some of you think I want to do away with the chaplaincy service, or that I don't think that they are a bunch of really good eggs?

They are a very necessary and and usually a great bunch of dedicated people and I am greatfull for the service they render on a daily basis.

Right,I hope that misunderstanding is cleared up now; it's mostly the C of E supplying these chaplains and of course it's a good thing they do, supply them, but the C of E doesn't miss any oportuinity to get it's hands on government money where ever it can and although in relative terms, as pointed out by Torri and he's right, the funding is small beer in the overall figures of running the NHS.

If you stand back and look at all of these little sums, I have allready described just a few of them in my previous posts on this thread, there are a lot more of places where this religious bunch have got their fingers in the pie and when you start to add them together including the small sum from the NHS among them it no longer can be considered a small sum, that's the point I'm trying to make.

Don't think for one moment think these pies the church has it's fingers into are not seen as many, all be it individually small sums, subscriptions to the perpetuation of this rapidly becoming defunct organisation and as it goes further and further down the tubes they will be clinging on to this, as they se it, funding, as though their lives depend on them and it does, so why not deny them and help them on their well deserved way out?

By the way Rose, prejudice; I have made due consideration, about how the NHS chaplaincy should be funded, so tecnically my view of this isn't a prejudiced pov.

ippy

The c of e also maintain many ancient and beautiful churches, part of our heritage.

So many of them are being closed down or turned into homes.

You might be glad to see the back of them, but I won't.

It's part of our history.

I don't begrudge them the small amount they get for doing the chaplaincy bit.

We tend to take it for granted that they maintain our heritage.

It probably costs the c of e far more to keep up buildings, so those of us interested in architecture can wander in.

Chaplaincy has got to be peanuts in comparison.

They could just leave the building to rot and worship in a field at less expense, but we'd all be worse off for that, heritage wise. IMO.

 Historically the c of e holds a unique place,  heritage wise, in the uk.

It's not even all about religion really, but about its special place in history,

destroy that and you are destroying our heritage.
 Of course they have their fingers in lots of pies, it's because they played  a central role in our unique history.




Our heritage is something we have, which others don't. Like the pound, it is uniquely British.

The queen is uniquely British as are many of the traditions.

Lose it, and it's gone forever, buried in the scrabble for us all to become clones of each other and like everyone else.

I like our eccentric bits, it's what makes us..... Well us!

Heaven forbid we should ever find ourselves with an opportunity for a president like Donald Trump!

God help us all, if he gets in.


« Last Edit: March 01, 2016, 02:03:47 PM by Rose »

ippy

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Re: The N H S Chaplaincy again
« Reply #16 on: March 01, 2016, 04:02:04 PM »
I haven't read all of the way through your post yet but I'm sure I haven't said anything about churches on this thread, as it happens of course they are a pŕrt of our heritage and I'm all for them being preserved, but this has nothing to do with the OP of my post?

ippy

Bubbles

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Re: The N H S Chaplaincy again
« Reply #17 on: March 01, 2016, 04:15:59 PM »
I haven't read all of the way through your post yet but I'm sure I haven't said anything about churches on this thread, as it happens of course they are a pŕrt of our heritage and I'm all for them being preserved, but this has nothing to do with the OP of my post?

ippy

You were objecting to the c of e special status, with regard to fingers in pies.


ippy

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Re: The N H S Chaplaincy again
« Reply #18 on: March 01, 2016, 05:28:13 PM »
You were objecting to the c of e special status, with regard to fingers in pies.

The many places the C of E picks up a little bit here and another little bit there, of which our taxes paying for the chaplaincy service is only one of the many places the church keeps taking from money from us that isn't due to them.

We shouldn't be subsidising religion, any religion, secular humanism or anything like the TUC*,  in any of the very many small amounts or large amounts either, in both cases the principle is exactly similar, the money the church filch off of us behind the scenes, overall is no small amount and just as they like it not immediately obvious.

Looking after our old buildings such as Iron Bridge and the many of the beautiful churches that adorn our countryside is an absolute must I agree with you.

* All equally worthy of a subsidy or not.

ippy     

P S I wouldn't want to rewrite history and I can't think of any rational reason why anyone would want to do something like that.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2016, 06:39:27 PM by ippy »

Shaker

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Re: The N H S Chaplaincy again
« Reply #19 on: March 04, 2016, 04:18:31 AM »
Reading this thread made me wonder if there are actually any humanist hospital chaplains. Yes, is the answer - there's one, and to my great surprise she's right here in Leicester: http://goo.gl/fCytRd
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Rhiannon

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Re: The N H S Chaplaincy again
« Reply #20 on: March 04, 2016, 07:07:55 AM »
Where does the NHS end up discriminating against gay people, because of the employment of a chaplain?

I don't think a chaplain would get the job if he discriminated.

I think the discrimination laws do apply, a chaplain has to deal with anyone, if asked regardless of sex, religion or none.

Most of the ones I've encountered have been so liberal in their ideas, they barely rate as Christian.

There's already been a case where the CofE revoked the license of a gay priest who worked as an NHS-funded chaplain because he married his partner. Without a license he couldn't do the job.

It's not the priests who discriminate, but the CofE.

Bubbles

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Re: The N H S Chaplaincy again
« Reply #21 on: March 04, 2016, 07:36:33 AM »
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/belief/2011/aug/16/sexism-church-of-england-prejudice

I can see why they wanted to put things into place to try and please everyone, but reading this link, I can also see how that in itself can cause offence.

I guess it's like a lot of things, it has to many ( extremists isn't the right word) but people who feel strongly about certain issues in places of authority.)

Perhaps one day they will move on and split.

Perhaps that wouldn't be such a bad thing, I have heard it said that one of the reason they are afraid of being more open to homosexuality is the reaction of African churches which are growing, that they might break away.



My friend is ordained in the C of E and I was surprised she didn't support women bishops. It isn't all men that object to it, but women too.







« Last Edit: March 04, 2016, 07:38:47 AM by Rose »

Shaker

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Re: The N H S Chaplaincy again
« Reply #22 on: March 04, 2016, 10:25:30 AM »
There's already been a case where the CofE revoked the license of a gay priest who worked as an NHS-funded chaplain because he married his partner. Without a license he couldn't do the job.

It's not the priests who discriminate, but the CofE.

http://goo.gl/N7TLiH
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Bubbles

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Re: The N H S Chaplaincy again
« Reply #23 on: March 04, 2016, 01:02:03 PM »
http://goo.gl/N7TLiH

I think that whole thing is bizarre


Quote
Pemberton’s marriage to his partner, Laurence Cunnington, in April 2014 was in defiance of a CofE ban on gay weddings for clergy, although they are permitted to enter into civil partnerships.

The bishop of Southwell and Nottingham, Richard Inwood, revoked his permission to officiate, which prevented Pemberton from taking up a job at King’s Mill hospital in Mansfield even though he was to be employed by the NHS as a hospital chaplain.

Bishop Inwood argued at the tribunal that according to CofE doctrine, marriage could only be between a man and a woman. The tribunal ruling said there was “no doubt whatsoever that the present doctrine of the church is clear”.

The 58-page ruling stated: “The claimant would never have been in this position had he not defied the doctrine of the church. The claimant knowingly entered into that marriage and knew what the potential consequences could be for him.”

By marrying, Pemberton was in breach of his oath of obedience. “There is the canonical requirement that he has to live his life as a priest consistent with his calling. In getting married to his partner, he was flying in the face of the clear restating of doctrine in relation to same-sex marriage.”

Pemberton has continued to work as a hospital chaplain in Lincolnshire, where the diocese issued him with a rebuke over his same-sex marriage but did not revoke his licence to officiate.


If they are allowed to be in a civil partnership, what are they doing differently joined in a marriage? ( that the bible prohibits)

Doesn't make much sense.

I get the whole " a man shouldn"t lie with a man" argument, that some Christians that accept gay people are born that way, but take the stance it's their belief it's wrong to act on it. ( btw getting something doesn't mean I agree with it, )
 But once you have allowed civil relationships which means men lie with men, what's the big deal with marriage ?

Ok I get the church doesn't want to perform it, but if the state performs it, what difference does it then make,  for a secular marriage to be accepted in the same way as a civil partnership?

Somehow the church isn't consistent.

its all over the place IMO.

Their rulings don't make any sense IMO.

Ok they think marriage is between a man and a woman, so don't do church ones.

They accept civil partnerships, so why not secular gay marriages?

They could still object to the gay, religious marriages performed by the c of e, in principal.

 :-\




« Last Edit: March 04, 2016, 01:09:15 PM by Rose »

Shaker

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Re: The N H S Chaplaincy again
« Reply #24 on: March 04, 2016, 01:04:47 PM »
This sort of cock-up is an inevitable consequence of having two systems running side-by-side simultaneously. As a private individual the man is perfectly legally entitled to marry his same-sex partner in a civil wedding from which all religious references are excluded. His occupation, or rather his employer, says that he can't.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.