Moving on

[floo]

deleted

[jeremyp]

I'd like my 20 year old body but without losing all the experience I've gained since then.

[Brownie]

Peace, warmth.  No hassles or worries.

[Rhiannon]

I get exactly where Jerrmy's coming from. I'd like another crack at it but with the knowledge and perspective I have now.

[Khatru]

I certainly wouldn't want an eternity of telling the supreme cosmic mega being how great he is.

[Shaker]

I don't wish for one or believe in one. It seems to me to diminish the reality and (if you're lucky) joy and wonder of life here and now. Even if you're unlucky and live a short life full of pain, misery and anguish, that sad fact doesn't thereby make an afterlife more likely, only more desirable and that's a different thing altogether.

I go with Robert Ingersoll - one life at a time is more than enough to be going on with - and with Richard Dawkins on the essential greed of desiring an afterlife. Look at the world around you and ask yourself: "What more do you want?" Adding an infinite string of zeroes to zero still adds up to zero; life is not made meaningful by positing an infinite/eternal stock of it - exactly the opposite.

If there is such a thing, I would hope it's more of the same, with many of the hindrances and obstacles cleared away. Although A.C. Grayling's idea of an afterlife in a vast, vast library with tea making facilities, and in my case lots of cats, is on a par.

[Rhiannon]

I don't understand wanting eternity. What I do get is the fear of loss and how an afterlife does away with the idea that when our nears and dears are gone, they're gone.

But yeah, this is heaven, this is paradise. It's messy and complicated and hurts sometimes, but it's blazing.

[wigginhall]

I don't understand wanting eternity. What I do get is the fear of loss and how an afterlife does away with the idea that when our nears and dears are gone, they're gone.

But yeah, this is heaven, this is paradise. It's messy and complicated and hurts sometimes, but it's blazing.

Nicely put.   I can relate eternity to this moment, rather than an endless collection of moments.   You can't measure now.

[Shaker]

A long time ago, by sheer coincidence, in quick succession I came across John MacTaggart's famous paper The Unreality of Time and The End of Time by the physicist Julian Barbour, both of which argue - one philosophically, one in terms of physics - that time as we ordinarily think of it is an illusion, a convenient, even necessary fiction in everyday life but ultimately a phantom with no actual inherent existence of its own. I've long wanted to do a thread on it, but it's massively complicated (and difficult to do without diagrams and images) so I've never got round to it. (Yet).

Anyway, this view is essentially the same as that expressed by Wittgenstein when he said that death is never an event in life - when you're alive you're alive, but once death has supervened you can never know it (because you're dead). Life will surely stop at some point, but we can never know of it because when that point comes, we are by definition dead and therefore unaware of it. So in practical terms, for us there is only life that goes on and on until it doesn't; and since we're unaware of it when it doesn't, in effect we live an eternal life right here and right now, every moment. Borges said something very similar also. I like that.

[wigginhall]

Very good, Shaker.   A thread on it would be fun.  Well, maybe.  It might get caught up in antitheist ontological naturalism, I suppose.

[Shaker]

*sigh* Yes, wiggles, it might very well ...

[Rhiannon]

I've never tried to grapple with understanding the notion that time is necessary but illusory, but it appeals to me no end. I like the idea of reality as I think of it just falling away. This is just a story; remove gods and we realise we're the authors of it.

[Shaker]

I've never tried to grapple with understanding the notion that time is necessary but illusory, but it appeals to me no end.

Barbour's book is superb, but a pig. Even at the popular science level it takes several readings, countless notes and a lot of thinking time to get the gist of everything he's trying to convey and even then it still makes your temples throb and your bum go funny.

[Sriram]

If an afterlife of some sort does exist, we aren't likely to be the same people we were at death? Would a child remain a child, a person with disabilities still have them, an elderly person with dementia remain demented, etc? Would we have the same relationship with our relatives and friends?

I suppose it is just a possibility that people continually move from one full life experience to another, where they become totally different characters in each.

From my point of view I prefer the idea of ceasing to be completely when I die. If that is the case I won't miss anyone or anything.

If you wish for an afterlife, what would you want it to be like?

Why don't you study some of the NDE cases and see what they say?!! There are literally millions of them. You might learn something there instead of all these idle musings and personal opinions on here.

http://www.near-death.com/

[Brownie]

What floo was asking was what sort of afterlife we would want, if we believed in an afterlife.

Many Orthodox Jews do not believe in Heaven as Christians (& others) are taught, they believe in the here and now and making the world better for the next generation.  If there are rewards they will be experienced in life.

I have said what I would like an afterlife to be like for me.  At the same time I think it is a good idea to do the best we can with this life which is the only one we know, that means enjoying ourselves as well as looking out for others and bearing trials and tribulations as best we can.  This world is a wonderful place and our society is far more caring now than it has ever been (better than when I was growing up), those are things to be celebrated.

[Shaker]

Why don't you study some of the NDE cases and see what they say?!! There are literally millions of them. You might learn something there instead of all these idle musings and personal opinions on here.

http://www.near-death.com/

Why would they say anything over and above personal opinion themselves?

[Leonard James]

Why would they say anything over and above personal opinion themselves?

That is what I find curious about the claims of the god/spirit believers. They seem to think that because someone has experienced such things, it somehow makes them true, regardless of the fact that their is no evidence for them beyond that.

[Brownie]

Siriam, I have read about NDEs and even posted on forums with a couple of people who had had them.   They are all different!

One of my fellow posters saw himself looking into several rooms where people had done to them what they had done to others - quite scary.   The other one felt he had been given true knowledge and faith and thereafter his beliefs were a mixture of different religions and a bit of original material.  Both were quite convinced by their experiences and would not be budged, not that anyone tried to budge them to my knowledge.  Other things I've read about are people floating above their unconscious body during resuscitation or on the operating table.  Certainly near death experiences have an indelible impact on some people.  Not always pleasant.

Years ago there was a lot of talk on forums about a report from an Irish man who had been stung by a poisonous jellyfish, his heart stopped beating for quite a while and he was 'dead', though not brain dead because he was resuscitated.  After that he claimed to have been brought back to life from death and God had shown him the glories to come (all based on the faith he already had).   Lots of posters on forums were full of his story, considering it a miracle.

A near death experience is a dream.  The dreams we remember are the ones we have shortly before waking, they may not last long but in our dreams time has little meaning.  We can spend hours or even days in a dream whereas, in reality, it has only been a few minutes.  Our subconscious and unconscious are marvellous store rooms.

Near death experiences take place - obviously before death - not long before regaining consciousness and the mind seems to work overtime then.

I am a great dreamer and some of my dreams I remember very well indeed, others fade.  I've never had a NDE despite having been in a coma (don't particularly want one).  Indeed when I came round I remembered what had happened immediately before but not during the coma.  I hope, if I had a NDE, I would apply common sense.  If it was pleasant I might take some cosy comfort and 'revisit' it occasionally but sincerely hope I wouldn't shout about it.

[Sriram]

Hi Brownie,

Actually I have studied NDE's quite a bit for many years and read many books about them. Request you to pl read Dr. Raymond Moody (one of the first researchers in the 1970's...'Life after Life') and Dr. Sam Parnia (very recent book...'What happens when we die?') besides others.

Pl check out the following if you want.

https://tsriramrao.wordpress.com/2012/01/19/near-death-expe/

Most NDE's have very common features. 

!.  Floating above the body and seeing it from outside, Feeling of detachment from body.
2. Seeing and hearing activities associated with the body in the hospital or accident site.
3. Seeing dead relatives.
4. Moving through a spiral tunnel or staircase.
5. Seeing a bright light and a feeling of love and absolute knowledge.
6. Some people see others waiting for reincarnation (Christian NDE's not Hindus).
7. Born blind people are able to see like everyone.
8. Being told to go back.
9. Finding oneself being drawn back into the body.
10.Feeling a sense of heaviness and regret at coming back into the body.
11. Recalling conversations and activities in the hospital....corroborated by doctors and nurses.
12. Some people claim 'death is no big deal' and even look forward to dying again....though they feel a new sense of duty in this world.

There are literally millions of cases across the globe and people of all religions, races, nationality, cultures, sex and age groups have been studied for over 40 years. These experiences are certainly not dreams or imagination.

Of course, there are some negative NDE's (about 20%) where the person feels fear and distress.  There are also some different interpretations of who the Bright Light is. Some say Jesus ...some say Ram ...or Krishna ...or whatever. 

It is also possible that there are some cases with very different experiences from the norm.....but a majority of the cases have the above pattern.

Most of us will naturally view these cases in the light of our own beliefs and comfort levels. Some people say..'they are all the same..so they cannot be real experiences...they must be brain generated visions'.  Some others say...' they are all so different ..so they cannot be real experiences...they must be dreams or hallucinations'.

So...it is a mystery ...but some doctors like Sam Parnia and many others are still studying the cases. Unlikely that they will be able to offer final and conclusive reports on them.

To me,  they are real Out of Body experiences and real After Death Experiences (Sam Parnia has specifically mentioned that) and not Near Death Experiences. They do offer us a glimpse of what lies ahead for us after death.

Cheers.

Sriram

[OH MY WORLD!]

http://billygraham.org/answer/what-will-we-look-like-when-we-get-to-heaven-2/

[ekim]

Perhaps one needs to distinguish between 'life', 'life forms' 'life events', 'mental forms' and 'mental events'.  Death is the absence of 'life' from physical life forms and where applicable from mental forms and events.  This assumes that 'life' exists in its own right and does not necessarily require a form, but to know it, requires an associated consciousness.  There are some who claim to consciously associate with 'life' in the body and might say 'I am the life', rather than identifying with the body or the mind, and they become life oriented.  Others, perhaps, identify more with the body and mind and become death oriented.  If life continues after its absence from the form it has previously taken then consciousness is necessary to know this otherwise it is irrelevant as unconsciousness (eternal darkness) become the default state.

As regards: "If you wish for an afterlife, what would you want it to be like?" my answer would be wait and 'see'.

[Shaker]

http://billygraham.org/answer/what-will-we-look-like-when-we-get-to-heaven-2/

Like he would know.

[ippy]

Just think heven would be hell for non-religious people; all of that eternity stuff with loads of nausiously smug religios and if it really was heaven I assume you wouldn't be able to kill yourself, what a nightmare.

ippy

[Brownie]

Ippy, the idea of Heaven is that we will all get on, no more conflict.  What is important to us now will not be when we are there.  So.....we can't imagine it, it's beyond us.

Thanks for the Billy Graham link, OMW. 
Mr Graham hasn't said much, wisely, except that it is all beyond our imagination.

Best to concentrate on what we have now.

Sririam, thanks for links etc.  I will read further.

[torridon]

David Eagleman touched on the possibility of immortality in his last episode of The Brain.  In a sense, the 'person' that we are, is an information product, essentially, information currently written on organic compounds, so we could in principle capture that information and 'resurrect' it perhaps using a novel substrate such as silicon technology.  There are quite a few already dead people in cryogenic storage who were hoping for some such technological resurrection in the future. My guess is these individuals have no hope, the information capture would have needed to be done before death and much of it is now destroyed through the freezing process. That doesn't mean that improved procedures in the future will not be able to 'capture' a person and store it on file.