Moving on

[Sriram]

Well....NDE's are true! Here is a fairly recent article on it from BBC.

http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20150303-what-its-really-like-to-die

[Brownie]

I see no harm in having pleasant thoughts, be they realistic or fantasies, torridon.  It's soothing to be able to escape from some situations, to travel in your head.  Quite therapeutic.  That isn't the same as believing fantasies to be true, such as children believing in fairies or Santa Claus.

Siriam, I read the article.  It really doesn't say anything that hasn't been said before.  I've no doubt that people have near death experiences, what they signify is debatable.  I don't see how their significance can be proved one way or the other.

The only thing I know is that I do not want a NDE.  No thank you!  If I did, I'm sure it would be horrible.

[Rhiannon]

So what about adults who believe in fairies and nature spirits, Brownie? Why are their beliefs and imaginings different?

[Shaker]

Well....NDE's are true!

You would have been more accurate if you'd said that NDEs are real - in that people definitely have experiences and are not lying about doing so - rather than 'true.'

[Leonard James]

Well....NDE's are true! Here is a fairly recent article on it from BBC.

http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20150303-what-its-really-like-to-die

Depriving a brain of oxygen doesn't mean that it is immediately unable to observe (and later) recall things.

[Brownie]

I don't suppose they are any different to that of children, Rhiannon.  Can't say I've ever come across an adult who believed in them but I'm sure they exist.  The people, not the fairies  .  I thought I saw a fairy in the lampshade in my bedroom when I was a child, nearly had a fit.  Also had nightmares from reading European fairy stories.  Some of them are so gruesome and not suitable for children.

Rupert and his friends in Nutwood are very pleasant.

[Sriram]

It is quite obvious from NDE's that at least in some cases, the patients are able to recall events and activities that they could not have possibly known of. And in such cases it has also been confirmed that the patients were clinically 'brain dead', as confirmed by the doctors. 

It is clear from this that NDE's are not to be taken lightly and dismissed away as many people tend to do. Why NDE's should not be considered as probable evidence for an after-life is therefore not clear.

Quite  evidently people prefer to hold on to their beliefs (religious, atheistic or otherwise)  and come up with convoluted explanations for NDE's rather than accept a fairly common experience as indicative of reality. This is not dissimilar to some people considering the moon landings as a hoax....regardless of all evidence to the contrary.

It is a mindset problem. Coming generations would certainly be more open to accepting NDE's as evidence for an after-life.

[Rhiannon]

I don't suppose they are any different to that of children, Rhiannon.  Can't say I've ever come across an adult who believed in them but I'm sure they exist.  The people, not the fairies  .  I thought I saw a fairy in the lampshade in my bedroom when I was a child, nearly had a fit.  Also had nightmares from reading European fairy stories.  Some of them are so gruesome and not suitable for children.

Rupert and his friends in Nutwood are very pleasant.

So are you saying that adults who believe in fairies are like children believing in stories? Is that different to adults believing in God, Jesus or heaven?

[Leonard James]

It is quite obvious from NDE's that at least in some cases, the patients are able to recall events and activities that they could not have possibly known of.

For example?

And in such cases it has also been confirmed that the patients were clinically 'brain dead', as confirmed by the doctors. 

Clinically brain dead does not mean dead. If they recover, they weren't dead.

It is clear from this that NDE's are not to be taken lightly and dismissed away as many people tend to do. Why NDE's should not be considered as probable evidence for an after-life is therefore not clear.

Understanding what NDEs are is not "taking them lightly". What we mustn't do is assume they mean anything more than brain activity.

Quite  evidently people prefer to hold on to their beliefs (religious, atheistic or otherwise)  and come up with convoluted explanations for NDE's rather than accept a fairly common experience as indicative of reality. This is not dissimilar to some people considering the moon landings as a hoax....regardless of all evidence to the contrary.

The moon landings were actual facts, NDEs often aren't.

It is a mindset problem. Coming generations would certainly be more open to accepting NDE's as evidence for an after-life.

I do hope not.

[Sriram]

You are just petrified at the possibility of an after-life....Len. That's your problem! 

[Leonard James]

You are just petrified at the possibility of an after-life....Len. That's your problem! 

What petrifies me is the willingness of some people to invent stuff just to avoid facing the finality of death!

[Sriram]

What petrifies me is the willingness of some people to invent stuff just to avoid facing the finality of death!

I don't think Dr. Sam Parnia and his patients are doing any such thing.

[Leonard James]

I don't think Dr. Sam Parnia and his patients are doing any such thing.

Good for them, but statements like this make me sceptical :-

"Of those patients, doctors were able to bring 16% back from the dead, ... "

They didn't do anything of the kind, the patients weren't actually dead.

[torridon]

Of course we used to think of alive/dead as simple either/or, but specialists in areas like resuscitation now think of death as not so much an event, but more as a process. Clearly activity can persist in brains for a period beyond cardiac arrest, and now we are finding that some levels of consciousness can still persist at voltage levels too low to show up on traditional ECG. And of course finger nails and hair will continue to grow for some time after brain death.  So we shoud not be asking - is the patient dead, but rather, how dead is this patient ?

[Sriram]

Of course we used to think of alive/dead as simple either/or, but specialists in areas like resuscitation now think of death as not so much an event, but more as a process. Clearly activity can persist in brains for a period beyond cardiac arrest, and now we are finding that some levels of consciousness can still persist at voltage levels too low to show up on traditional ECG. And of course finger nails and hair will continue to grow for some time after brain death.  So we shoud not be asking - is the patient dead, but rather, how dead is this patient ?

Maybe so....but we should not over complicate it just because we want to explain away NDE's and dismiss the possibility of an after-life. There is a clear vested interest there.

There is something we can call 'death' and doctors worldwide do have a well accepted definition of it. And many NDE's happen after the accepted clinical definition of death.

[torridon]

Maybe so....but we should not over complicate it just because we want to explain away NDE's and dismiss the possibility of an after-life. There is a clear vested interest there.

Who would have a vested interest in dismissing the possibility of an afterlife ?

[Leonard James]

Of course we used to think of alive/dead as simple either/or, but specialists in areas like resuscitation now think of death as not so much an event, but more as a process. Clearly activity can persist in brains for a period beyond cardiac arrest, and now we are finding that some levels of consciousness can still persist at voltage levels too low to show up on traditional ECG. And of course finger nails and hair will continue to grow for some time after brain death.  So we shoud not be asking - is the patient dead, but rather, how dead is this patient ?

Surely, by definition, dead means without life of any sort.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

So are you saying that adults who believe in fairies are like children believing in stories? Is that different to adults believing in God, Jesus or heaven?

I think in the past there was a clear distinction between belief in fairies and religion and your present confusion is due to ignorance exacerbated by a general social alienation in secular Britain.

IMHO.

[ekim]

Surely, by definition, dead means without life of any sort.

... and a near death experience is not the same as an experience of the dead.  As Torridon said it might be better to refine the dying process more and more.

[Brownie]

So are you saying that adults who believe in fairies are like children believing in stories? Is that different to adults believing in God, Jesus or heaven?

That's a fair point Rhiannon.   I've never known a 'grown up' who believes in fairies so cannot compare.   Believers would have to explain how and why they believe in God for a fair comparison.  Many say they have a personal relationship with God or Jesus or both and it is a fairly unshakable belief.  Not so with fairies etc, even kids wouldn't take much convincing that they are not real, merely a fantasy.

Regarding NDEs and people seeing or experiencing things they would not have known about, it is surprising what knowledge we store in our unconscious - people, impressions as well as events, long since forgotten but deep down in the memory store.   Such things often come out in psychotherapy too.

[Sriram]

Surely, by definition, dead means without life of any sort.

LOL!  Len....so you want to define 'death' in such a way as to eliminate the possibility of understanding anything about an after-life ....and then start thumping the table asking for evidence of an after-life. Nice!!

Let me tell you a mystical definition of death. Final death occurs when the Silver Cord connecting the soul to the body is detached. Till then death is not final and a person can come back into the body.

Now...that's the definition I like!  Whether doctors can know anything about this is another matter. They have to be content with standard definitions, I suppose.   

[Sriram]

Who would have a vested interest in dismissing the possibility of an afterlife ?

Lots of people. Atheists, materialists, antireligionists, scientists....and many others I expect.

No one wants their world view or their beliefs to be suddenly proven wrong. Memes!!  They will do anything to survive.

Scientists in particular will have plenty to lose if an after-life is proved. It'll suddenly give life a meaning and direction....horror of horrors!!  What will happen to all the random variations, emergent properties, coincidental cosmic occurrences and so on?!! Generations of carefully cultivated materialism will....poof... vanish.

People will once again have to believe in God or gods...and purpose...and morality....and sin ...and penance....and discipline....and sacrifice and duty etc.

What do you mean 'who' has a vested interest in dismissing an after-life?!

[Shaker]

Lots of people. Atheists, materialists, antireligionists, scientists....and many others I expect.

Scientists in particular will have plenty to lose if an after-life is proved. It'll suddenly give life a meaning and direction....horror of horrors!!  What will happen to all the random variations, emergent properties, coincidental cosmic occurrences and so on?!! Generations of carefully cultivated materialism will....poof... vanish.

Except that any scientist who can come up with any evidence for anything of this kind (plus its appropriate methodology, of course) is in for not only papers in Nature but a guaranteed Nobel Prize, the money that goes with it and international fame.

People will once again have to believe in God or gods...and purpose...and morality....and sin ...and penance....and discipline....and sacrifice and duty etc.

No they won't. An afterlife and the existence of any gods are in fact discrete, separable items. They usually go hand in hand, it's true - Bertrand Russell called them "the irreducible minimum of theology" - but there's no inherent link which entails that one inescapably leads to the other. There have been atheists who have believed in an afterlife - John MacTaggart and C. J. Ducasse, for example.

[Sriram]

If an after-life is proved, life and its priorities will change dramatically..Shaker.  What is the use of a Nobel Prize and any other human award? It'll all be seen for the temporal benefit that it is.

This world suddenly becomes just a temporary place... like a boarding school. Going back 'home' would be more important. Of course, ones duties and successes here would be important but only as a reflection of what's expected of us from the after-life.

Especially since some people experience distress and pain in the after-life....ones life style, attitudes and principles will become important. People will realize that life is being monitored and that there are repercussions.  It'll not be .... 'just one life time and oblivion...so do as you please'.

When I say God or gods...I don't mean it in the standard mythological sense. What I mean is that there will be people/beings who are monitoring and guiding us all the time. That can be joyful to some people and frightening to some others.

[Sriram]

Further to the above post. If a secular after-life is proved...life and death will become so different in our perspective. All the money making, pleasure seeking, ego gratification will take a back seat. Comparisons will not be based on wealth, comfort and luxury.   Celebrities will lose their status. Genuinely good, loving people will be valued.

Death will lose its sting. People will no longer regard death as a final separation.....and sorrow over it, though losing a person could still be painful.   

Old age will not be the lonely, dreadful and distressing wait for disease and oblivion. It will be a happy packing up time.... to go home..hoping you have done well this lifetime. ....hoping to do better next time around.

Animal instincts will still play a role of course, and there will still be people who will not be able to control their basic urges regardless of the repercussions. But they will be a relative minority.

This will be the Golden Age (Satya Yuga) that people have been looking forward to.

Just some thoughts.