Moving on

[Brownie]

I have to say it sounds delightful Sririam.  If I really could embrace all that, I would be far more serene.  Your posts make me want to investigate further.

[ekim]

I have to say it sounds delightful Sririam.  If I really could embrace all that, I would be far more serene.  Your posts make me want to investigate further.

Have a look at The Tibetan Book of the Dead.

[Sriram]

Have a look at The Tibetan Book of the Dead.

If NDE's are taken seriously and investigated with the seriousness and focus that is required for such a fundamental and important phenomenon.....it will make all religious texts, all mythology, all ancient ideas of death and after-life completely redundant. 

We will finally have real and contemporary experiences to back up our understanding of life and death..... and this will be true and meaningful to all humans across the world.

I have always found it shocking that research on this phenomenon is still on the fringes and still regarded as some thing wacko and New Wave.

It can change the entire pattern of life on earth. 

PS: I don't recommend the 'Tibetan Book of the Dead' to anyone.  I have read it and don't find it useful at all. I personally prefer Sam Parnia or Raymond Moody.

[Leonard James]

LOL!  Len....so you want to define 'death' in such a way as to eliminate the possibility of understanding anything about an after-life ....and then start thumping the table asking for evidence of an after-life. Nice!!

Let me tell you a mystical definition of death. Final death occurs when the Silver Cord connecting the soul to the body is detached. Till then death is not final and a person can come back into the body.

Now...that's the definition I like!  Whether doctors can know anything about this is another matter. They have to be content with standard definitions, I suppose.   

What nonsense! I think you mean the "invisible" silver cord connecting the "invisible" soul ... just like the invisible pink unicorn or the invisible flying teapot.

Dearie me, the dafter the story the more willling you are to believe it!

[Sriram]

I have to say it sounds delightful Sririam.  If I really could embrace all that, I would be far more serene.  Your posts make me want to investigate further.

Brownie.....I suggest you follow your instincts and investigate further.  Maybe you could even walk into Southampton hospital and talk to Sam Parnia (not sure he is still there though....I think he is now in New York continuing the same work).

These are very serious matters and IMO much more important than black holes, Higgs Boson and other such matters on which so much money and energy is being spent. 

[Sriram]

Never mind ...Len. Have a good night!  (India time)

[Leonard James]

Never mind ...Len. Have a good night! 

I'm happy to say I hardly ever any trouble sleeping ... even in the middle of the day!

[Brownie]

Thanks Sririam but I was not thinking so much of near death experiences, rather Golden Age (Satya Yuga).  I do realize they are all connected. 

Southampton is a long way away from where I live  , so won't be dropping in there.

Ekim, thanks for your recommendation of the Tibetan Book of the Dead.  I have read synopsis of it and quotations but not the entire text.  Now I'll consider reading it all, in bits and pieces.  Frankly, I am a bit scared!

[torridon]

Lots of people. Atheists, materialists, antireligionists, scientists....and many others I expect.

No one wants their world view or their beliefs to be suddenly proven wrong. Memes!!  They will do anything to survive.

Scientists in particular will have plenty to lose if an after-life is proved. It'll suddenly give life a meaning and direction....horror of horrors!!  What will happen to all the random variations, emergent properties, coincidental cosmic occurrences and so on?!! Generations of carefully cultivated materialism will....poof... vanish.

People will once again have to believe in God or gods...and purpose...and morality....and sin ...and penance....and discipline....and sacrifice and duty etc.

What do you mean 'who' has a vested interest in dismissing an after-life?!

Ah, I see what you mean.  I rather think the 'vested interests', and 'meme' jibes suit people who follow religious beliefs rather than those who do not.  It is science, not religion, that maintains at its heart the notion that all knowledge is provisional, and many scientists dream of overturning the current paradigm a la Einstein and perhaps picking up a Nobel prize in the process.  It is science, not religion, that concerns itself with how things actually are, and actually work, rather than how we would like to think they are, and has consequently built into itself a high bar of integrity through a culture of testing and attention to detail. Religions on the other hand are more concerned with ways of living and thinking that suit people in a particular cultural context; the epestemic truth of religious claims are not their main driver, more important is their ability to balance and comfort the mind on a day to day basis.

[L.A.]

If an afterlife of some sort does exist, we aren't likely to be the same people we were at death? Would a child remain a child, a person with disabilities still have them, an elderly person with dementia remain demented, etc? Would we have the same relationship with our relatives and friends?

I suppose it is just a possibility that people continually move from one full life experience to another, where they become totally different characters in each.

From my point of view I prefer the idea of ceasing to be completely when I die. If that is the case I won't miss anyone or anything.

If you wish for an afterlife, what would you want it to be like?

As I have obtained my 'Compostela' , I expect St Peter to wave me straight through to the Executive Lounge for complimentary drinks and nibbles while everyone else is sent to purgatory 

[Leonard James]

Scientists in particular will have plenty to lose if an after-life is proved. It'll suddenly give life a meaning and direction....horror of horrors!! 

Are you seriously suggesting that those of us who don't believe in an after-life lead lives without meaning or direction? If so, then your vision is more blinkered that I thought.

People will once again have to believe in God or gods...and purpose...and morality....and sin ...and penance....and discipline....and sacrifice and duty etc.

Sriram, we don't have to believe in gods to lead lives of purpose, morality, discipline and sacrifice etc. Common sense and consideration for other people and the environment is all that is needed.

[ekim]

Ekim, thanks for your recommendation of the Tibetan Book of the Dead.  I have read synopsis of it and quotations but not the entire text.  Now I'll consider reading it all, in bits and pieces.  Frankly, I am a bit scared!

Just see it as another piece of second hand information indicating what others believe in.  Unless you allow the belief to take you over, there is nothing to fear.... the same with stories of the New Age, Golden Age, Age of Aquarius, eschatology and parousia.

[Bubbles]

Thanks Sririam but I was not thinking so much of near death experiences, rather Golden Age (Satya Yuga).  I do realize they are all connected. 

Southampton is a long way away from where I live  , so won't be dropping in there.

Ekim, thanks for your recommendation of the Tibetan Book of the Dead.  I have read synopsis of it and quotations but not the entire text.  Now I'll consider reading it all, in bits and pieces.  Frankly, I am a bit scared!

http://www.holybooks.com/wp-content/uploads/The-Tibetan-Book-of-the-Dead.pdf

[Sriram]

Ah, I see what you mean.  I rather think the 'vested interests', and 'meme' jibes suit people who follow religious beliefs rather than those who do not.  It is science, not religion, that maintains at its heart the notion that all knowledge is provisional, and many scientists dream of overturning the current paradigm a la Einstein and perhaps picking up a Nobel prize in the process.  It is science, not religion, that concerns itself with how things actually are, and actually work, rather than how we would like to think they are, and has consequently built into itself a high bar of integrity through a culture of testing and attention to detail. Religions on the other hand are more concerned with ways of living and thinking that suit people in a particular cultural context; the epestemic truth of religious claims are not their main driver, more important is their ability to balance and comfort the mind on a day to day basis.

Scientists are also human and have their share of beliefs and mindsets. They cannot be completely rational and objective about everything. They have their own memes.

Secondly, scientists may be rational and objective about individual theories in physics, biology etc. and may be open to change and modification....but they will not be entirely objective as regards spirituality vs materialism as a general philosophy. Their comfort zones and biases will kick in. All their beliefs, mindsets and pet theories about life will not allow them to be neutral about such issues as NDE's.

[Shaker]

Scientists are also human and have their share of beliefs and mindsets. They cannot be completely rational and objective about everything. They have their own memes.

Secondly, scientists may be rational and objective about individual theories in physics, biology etc. and may be open to change and modification....but they will not be entirely objective as regards spirituality vs materialism as a general philosophy. Their comfort zones will kick in. All their beliefs, mindsets and pet theories about life will not allow them to be neutral about such issues as NDE's.

Except that science is the very thing that, due to several of its built-in features, attempts to be as objective as possible by taking out the personal element - the chance of bias and preference - as far as possible. You talk as though scientists work alone in dusty garrets; that's a reversal of the truth.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Except that science is the very thing that, due to several of its built-in features, attempts to be as objective as possible by taking out the personal element - the chance of bias and preference

Yes Brobat does that too(and other branches of disinfectant) and saves more lives per year probably than cosmology or evolutionary psychology......put together.

So the mystery is ....why Scientism rather than Brobatism?

[Sriram]

Except that science is the very thing that, due to several of its built-in features, attempts to be as objective as possible by taking out the personal element - the chance of bias and preference - as far as possible. You talk as though scientists work alone in dusty garrets; that's a reversal of the truth.

All that's very well as long as we remain within the realm of measurable and readily testable physical science.

Once we venture into grey areas such as NDE's where standard methods and practices cannot be applied...scientists are out of their depths and that's when their biases and mindsets start showing up.

[Shaker]

Yes Brobat does that too(and other branches of disinfectant) and saves more lives per year probably than cosmology or evolutionary psychology......put together.

So the mystery is ....why Scientism rather than Brobatism?

Scientism is just a whine, a term used by people when science says something they don't like, typically about their religious beliefs.

[Shaker]

Once we venture into grey areas such as NDE's where standard methods and practices cannot be applied

Why not?

...scientists are out of their depths and that's when their biases and mindsets start showing up

How would you know?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

All that's very well as long as we remain within the realm of measurable and readily testable physical science.

Once we venture into grey areas such as NDE's where standard methods and practices cannot be applied...scientists are out of their depths and that's when their biases and mindsets start showing up.

It's even worse than that since Chomsky says science only has to go out as far as say sociology to lose it's reliability.

[Sriram]

Why not?How would you know?

Oh...please...!!! 

[Shaker]

Oh...please...!!! 

Well, either you can answer the questions or you can't.

Obviously it's the latter

[Rhiannon]

Yes Brobat does that too(and other branches of disinfectant) and saves more lives per year probably than cosmology or evolutionary psychology......put together.

So the mystery is ....why Scientism rather than Brobatism?

No science, no disinfectant. But of course that's safe science; it does some of the job your god doesn't by preventing disease and infection and then you can still give God all the glory for its discovery.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

No science, no disinfectant.

No disinfectant, no science.

[Brownie]

Just see it as another piece of second hand information indicating what others believe in.  Unless you allow the belief to take you over, there is nothing to fear.... the same with stories of the New Age, Golden Age, Age of Aquarius, eschatology and parousia.

Would you put the 'Tibetan Book of the Dead' on a par with the other stories you mentioned eki,?  I really dislke that sort of writing, it seems to airy fairy to me.  Like astrology.  I might have liked it when I was a teenager.  Many years ago a younger person gave me a book called, "The Celestine Prophecy'', I just couldn't get into it, nor did I see the point of it, yet it was very popular amongst youngsters for a while.  I suppose all things have their season.