Author Topic: The downward trend continues  (Read 33545 times)

ippy

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The downward trend continues
« on: March 03, 2016, 05:16:14 PM »
I just worth it's worth a mention, I noticed that on both the B H A & the N S S sites have a report that came from the C of E about the continuing decline of their church attendence in England, it has fallen below the one million mark for the first time.

It's easy to find on both sights, via google or other browsers.

ippy

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: The downward trend continues
« Reply #1 on: March 03, 2016, 05:38:12 PM »
I just worth it's worth a mention, I noticed that on both the B H A & the N S S sites have a report that came from the C of E about the continuing decline of their church attendence in England, it has fallen below the one million mark for the first time.

It's easy to find on both sights, via google or other browsers.

ippy
Oh no Ippy and his ultimate argumentum ad populum argument.
.....How many visitors does the BHA and NSS site have?

Brownie

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Re: The downward trend continues
« Reply #2 on: March 03, 2016, 05:40:12 PM »
CofE attendance has been on the decline for many years, gone are the days when the church was an authoritative body in the community, the vicar being an awesome figure.  People are disillusioned and want something different.

There are small pockets which are thriving, mainly the evangelical wing.
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OH MY WORLD!

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Re: The downward trend continues
« Reply #3 on: March 03, 2016, 05:46:49 PM »
Another blank post from ippy. I couldn't care less about the attendance of the Anglican church in the UK. What I do celebrate is the soaring growth of Christianity in Africa and China.

Brownie

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Re: The downward trend continues
« Reply #4 on: March 03, 2016, 05:50:26 PM »
CofE attendance is interesting to us in the UK, OMW.  Most of us on here are British and have grown up with a Church of England near to us.

I didn't know about China but am a bit dubious about the 'flavour' of the spreading Christianity in African countries - where Islam is also on the rise, as it is worldwide - is it 'kindly', especially to minority groups?
Let us profit by what every day and hour teaches us

ippy

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Re: The downward trend continues
« Reply #5 on: March 03, 2016, 06:40:34 PM »
Oh no Ippy and his ultimate argumentum ad populum argument.
.....How many visitors does the BHA and NSS site have?

I was only trying to cheer up the non-religious, I wasn't arguing anything I was just pointing out this decline measured by the C of E themselves.

ippy

Shaker

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Re: The downward trend continues
« Reply #6 on: March 03, 2016, 07:16:45 PM »
Oh no Ippy and his ultimate argumentum ad populum argument.
No it isn't. He's not constructing an argument on the basis of sheer numbers alone, which is what the AAP is. In fact he isn't constructing an argument of any kind at all, by his own admission ("I wasn't arguing anything"), just reporting on a news item.

"The claims of Christianity are false because so few people believe them" - that would be an AAP. The reverse would also be an AAP. There has to be a because in there somewhere - it's the because that's the fallacious bit.
Quote
How many visitors does the BHA and NSS site have?
Vlad, that's what you used to call a tu coque fallacy [sic].

As in a load of old ...
« Last Edit: March 03, 2016, 09:03:54 PM by Shaker »
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Rhiannon

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Re: The downward trend continues
« Reply #7 on: March 03, 2016, 07:25:30 PM »
CofE attendance has been on the decline for many years, gone are the days when the church was an authoritative body in the community, the vicar being an awesome figure.  People are disillusioned and want something different.

There are small pockets which are thriving, mainly the evangelical wing.

Actually what most people want is no church at all.

The CofE is its own worst enemy. It's hard to sympathise.

Bubbles

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Re: The downward trend continues
« Reply #8 on: March 03, 2016, 07:58:05 PM »
CofE attendance is interesting to us in the UK, OMW.  Most of us on here are British and have grown up with a Church of England near to us.

I didn't know about China but am a bit dubious about the 'flavour' of the spreading Christianity in African countries - where Islam is also on the rise, as it is worldwide - is it 'kindly', especially to minority groups?

I know what you mean, especially about the kindly bit.

I think the c of e is considered fairly safe by a lot of people in the uk.




Leonard James

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Re: The downward trend continues
« Reply #9 on: March 03, 2016, 08:22:54 PM »
Actually what most people want is no church at all.

The CofE is its own worst enemy. It's hard to sympathise.

Amen! The church has always sought to control people's lives, and now we are getting wise to it.

Brownie

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Re: The downward trend continues
« Reply #10 on: March 03, 2016, 08:53:25 PM »
Actually what most people want is no church at all.

The CofE is its own worst enemy. It's hard to sympathise.

I haven't seen any posts sympathetic, Rhiannon.
I started being 'fond' of the CofE a few years ago (one could say I'm a well known supporter of lost causes).
What I like about it is that there is something for everybody.  There are four Anglican churches within walking distance of my house, two are the average, middle of the road type - though one of those states on its website that it follows 'the Catholic tradition' - with a lady vicar.  One is very, very high church.  One is happy clappy evangelical.

If enough people don't want a church at all, churches will gradually disappear, except as buildings of interest if they are old enough.

Where will all the women priests go then I wonder?  They seem to be everywhere.  A good thing, imo, but is there a future for any vicars at all or will they become an extinct species?
Let us profit by what every day and hour teaches us

ippy

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Re: The downward trend continues
« Reply #11 on: March 03, 2016, 08:57:06 PM »
Amen! The church has always sought to control people's lives, and now we are getting wise to it.

There you are; I thought it might bring some cheer.

Your post Len, it seems about right to me.

ippy

ippy

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Re: The downward trend continues
« Reply #12 on: March 03, 2016, 09:03:18 PM »
I haven't seen any posts sympathetic, Rhiannon.
I started being 'fond' of the CofE a few years ago (one could say I'm a well known supporter of lost causes).
What I like about it is that there is something for everybody.  There are four Anglican churches within walking distance of my house, two are the average, middle of the road type - though one of those states on its website that it follows 'the Catholic tradition' - with a lady vicar.  One is very, very high church.  One is happy clappy evangelical.

If enough people don't want a church at all, churches will gradually disappear, except as buildings of interest if they are old enough.

Where will all the women priests go then I wonder?  They seem to be everywhere.  A good thing, imo, but is there a future for any vicars at all or will they become an extinct species?

Don't worry Ms Brown, if there's any of them left we'll get em.

ippy


Samuel

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Re: The downward trend continues
« Reply #13 on: March 03, 2016, 09:14:59 PM »
Actually what most people want is no church at all.

The CofE is its own worst enemy. It's hard to sympathise.

I know what you mean but it actually makes me feel quite sad. Let others celebrate the fact, but I will mourn its passing.

The congregation of our local CofE church do a lot of good stuff in our village. My wife helps out, but as is so often the case the real momentum comes from people who are quite old. When that generation dies out... I just wonder sometimes at what we might be on the brink of losing without realising it.
A lot of people don't believe that the loch ness monster exists. Now, I don't know anything about zooology, biology, geology, herpetology, evolutionary theory, evolutionary biology, marine biology, cryptozoology, palaeontology or archaeology... but I think... what if a dinosaur got into the lake?

SweetPea

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Re: The downward trend continues
« Reply #14 on: March 03, 2016, 09:49:31 PM »
Actually what most people want is no church at all.
.....

That's quite a sweeping statement, Rhiannon.... and not entirely true.
For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power and of love and of a sound mind ~ 2 Timothy 1:7

SweetPea

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Re: The downward trend continues
« Reply #15 on: March 03, 2016, 09:50:44 PM »
I know what you mean but it actually makes me feel quite sad. Let others celebrate the fact, but I will mourn its passing.

The congregation of our local CofE church do a lot of good stuff in our village. My wife helps out, but as is so often the case the real momentum comes from people who are quite old. When that generation dies out... I just wonder sometimes at what we might be on the brink of losing without realising it.

Insightful post, Samuel.
For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power and of love and of a sound mind ~ 2 Timothy 1:7

Rhiannon

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Re: The downward trend continues
« Reply #16 on: March 03, 2016, 10:06:57 PM »
I know what you mean but it actually makes me feel quite sad. Let others celebrate the fact, but I will mourn its passing.

The congregation of our local CofE church do a lot of good stuff in our village. My wife helps out, but as is so often the case the real momentum comes from people who are quite old. When that generation dies out... I just wonder sometimes at what we might be on the brink of losing without realising it.

It's no secret I was once quite involved with the CofE; like you I know how important they are not only in rural areas but in very deprived ones, with some poor sod in a dog collar burying old ladies and dealing with the soup kitchen and rising damp.

The problems that make it its own worst enemy are myriad. Not least the Synods themselves - my disillusionment set in when asked as a Deanery Synod member to vote for my Diocesan Synod. Glossy brochure arrived, packed with Libersls v Evangrlicals with a smattering of Anglo- Catholics. And although my first reaction was to vote for all the lovely liberal people it was actually obvious it wasn't going to stop the in-fighting, the suspicion and bad feeling.

Or how about the arguments over liturgy, pews v chairs, spending £5k on a light fitting. Vicars banning yoga, refusing to baptise babies of unmarried parents, charging for a child's funeral.

And there's no freedom of conscience in it - a priest who wishes to bless gay unions can't - he or she would have no choice but to resign, losing their livelihood in many cases. Priests have to swear obedience to their bishop - this was what made me leave the church long before I lost my faith - it is fundamentally unjust to its very core.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2016, 10:09:30 PM by Rhiannon »

Rhiannon

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Re: The downward trend continues
« Reply #17 on: March 03, 2016, 10:21:17 PM »
Two good books that shed light on the inside of the CofE are Peter Owen Jones' Bed of Nails and Small Boat, Big Sea. Written before he started presenting television programmes, they chronicle his training and first parish position.

He says that the CofE deserves to die even as he serves it. His account of what the Church does to a fellow deacon when they find out he has had depression gives a flavour of why.

Shaker

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Re: The downward trend continues
« Reply #18 on: March 03, 2016, 10:33:44 PM »
Two good books that shed light on the inside of the CofE are Peter Owen Jones' Bed of Nails and Small Boat, Big Sea. Written before he started presenting television programmes, they chronicle his training and first parish position.

He says that the CofE deserves to die even as he serves it. His account of what the Church does to a fellow deacon when they find out he has had depression gives a flavour of why.
I'd like to reply to Samuel's excellent post tomorrow, save to add to this one that I've heard identical stories and therefore similar sentiments from other clergy - they really do say that the organisation of which they're a part has to go.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Bubbles

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Re: The downward trend continues
« Reply #19 on: March 03, 2016, 11:28:02 PM »
On a sunny morning, William's mother came into her son's room and said, "William, it's Sunday. Time to get up! Time to get up and go to church! Get up!"

From under the covers came mumbles, "I don't want to go!"

"What do you mean?" she said. "That's silly! Now get up and get dressed and go to church!"

"No!" he shot back. "I'll give you two reasons. I don't like them and they don't like me!"

"Nonsense," she told him. "I'll give YOU two reasons to go. First, you are 42 years old, and second, you are the PASTOR!"

Bubbles

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Re: The downward trend continues
« Reply #20 on: March 04, 2016, 07:28:04 AM »
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/belief/2011/aug/16/sexism-church-of-england-prejudice


I put this on another thread but it applies more here I think

Quote

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/belief/2011/aug/16/sexism-church-of-england-prejudice

I can see why they wanted to put things into place to try and please everyone, but reading this link, I can also see how that in itself can cause offence.

I guess it's like a lot of things, it has to many ( extremists isn't the right word) but people who feel strongly about certain issues in places of authority.)

Perhaps one day they will move on and split.

Perhaps that wouldn't be such a bad thing, I have heard it said that one of the reason they are afraid of being more open to homosexuality is the reaction of African churches which are growing, that they might break away.



My friend is ordained in the C of E and I was surprised she didn't support women bishops. It isn't all men that object to it, but women too.

















« Last Edit: March 04, 2016, 07:41:19 AM by Rose »

john

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Re: The downward trend continues
« Reply #21 on: March 04, 2016, 08:47:02 AM »
Rose

Thanks for giving me a laugh this morning.
"Try again. Fail again. Fail Better". Samuel Beckett

Ricky Spanish

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Re: The downward trend continues
« Reply #22 on: March 04, 2016, 09:41:26 AM »
Cultural Christians only bother about the church when it comes to funerals and weddings, and perhaps the occasional baptising thingy.

They would much rather go to ASDA on a Sunday than waste their time going to a service.

It's only the swivelly-eyed evangenitals that bother arranging little get-togethers with their version of God and/or Jesus these days.
UNDERSTAND - I MAKE OPINIONS. IF YOUR ARGUMENTS MAKE ME QUESTION MY OPINION THEN I WILL CONSIDER THEM.

Khatru

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Re: The downward trend continues
« Reply #23 on: March 04, 2016, 11:40:36 AM »
Another blank post from ippy. I couldn't care less about the attendance of the Anglican church in the UK. What I do celebrate is the soaring growth of Christianity in Africa and China.

Christianity in Western Europe is a bit like the Bruce Willis character in the Sixth Sense - it's dead but it doesn't realise it.

As for other parts of the world? Yeah, Christianity tends to flourish where levels of education are low. 

Remember this mantra:  "Education, Education, Education"

Education is the single most devastating response to religion and VD. Where there are good standards of education there are less of these two problems.


So, what about Africa then?  Well, we've all seen the brand of Christianity in Africa.  Here are some examples of what happens when Christians replace African superstitions with their own ones.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/1376692.stm

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The court heard how the two nuns handed over thousands of people who had sought refuge in their convent. They even supplied cans of petrol to the Hutu militias, who set fire to a garage sheltering some 500 refugees.


http://ictr-archive09.library.cornell.edu/ENGLISH/cases/Musabyimana/indictment/indictment.html

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7.                  Bishop Samuel MUSABYIMANA specifically instructed Pastor NGILINSHUTI to register refugees by ethnic or racial group, as described above, or was aware that Pastor NGILINSHUTI made such listings and on several occasions was present while refugees were being registered.

8.                  This list of refugees, identifying them by ethnic or racial group and indicating their location on the church compound, was used to select Tutsi refugees at Shyogwe diocese to be transported to Kabgayi (a nearby massacre site), or to other unknown destinations, in order to be killed.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/12/13/AR2006121301948.html

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A Catholic priest was convicted Wednesday of taking part in Rwanda's 1994 genocide by ordering militiamen to set fire to a church and then bulldoze it while 2,000 people seeking safety were huddled inside.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/3561365.stm

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Her family were Catholic, she says. Those who killed them worshipped at the same church.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10294529

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A Finnish court has sentenced a Rwandan preacher to life in jail for his participation in Rwanda's genocide.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-13507474

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During the genocide she ordered women and girls to be raped and forced people onto trucks - they were driven away to be killed.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/apr/08/catholic-church-apologise-failure-rwanda-genocide-vatican

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Father Wenceslas Munyeshyaka was notorious during the 1994 genocide of 800,000 Tutsis for wearing a gun on his hip and colluding with the Hutu militia that murdered hundreds of people sheltering in his church.

Want some more examples of Christian love?

A government minister in Ghana has called on the country's intelligence forces to round up all gays.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/ghana-official-calls-for-effort-to-round-up-suspected-gays-2318507.html

Quote
The move by Mr Aidoo has drawn support from other politicians, including the general secretary of the People's National Convention (PNC) who told Radio Gold on Tuesday: "Homosexuality is abhorrent. Media discourse across the world is being dictated by the vulgar opinions of homosexuals. Ghana and probably Africa cannot sustain the menace of homosexuals.

From Ghana's Christian Council:

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We Can't Afford to Destroy Our Future in the Name of Human Rights

Quote
The clergy have spoken. Homosexuality, they pontificate, is ungodly. After taking a critical view of the activities of gay and lesbians in the society, the clergy says it "cannot afford to destroy the future of this country in the name of human rights," and described homosexuality as "unnatural and ungodly" act.

The Christian Council of Ghana said the practice of homosexuality should not be entertained in the Ghanaian society.

"It is an abomination in the eyes of God and also contributes to the growing rate of sexually transmitted diseases," the leaders of the Christian community explained.

If you've got the intestinal fortitude you can read the rest of it online

Then we have the African church and their open opposition to the use of condoms which has led to disease and death.

Yup.  Christian missionaries spreading their bigotry and hatred has influenced these deeply superstitious people; I doubt anyone has caused more damage to traditional African lifestyles.

===============================================

What about China?

Well we know about the millions who died during the Christian-led Tai Ping Rebellion

Any Christian movement in China will be inscrutably monitored by the government.  They'll come down hard on anything they deem to be at odds with their own policies and doctrines.  They've already appointed their own Catholic bishop independently of Rome. 

If Christianity has any chance of flourishing in China then it will have to prostitute itself by making compromises that appeal to the Chinese and by doing so will become a quite different Christianity to whatever brand of snake oil you're familiar with.   

In any event, the Chinese view Christianity as a western movement so it's unlikely to reach the level of acceptance it gained in Europe and America.  China is a completely different animal from the west. Read your history and you'll see that Christianity was in China around the same time that it was establishing itself in Rome yet it lost out to the established religion and culture that already existed.

There's every likelihood this will happen again. China will run the show and it will be on their terms and always maintaining their culture at the expense of whatever your idea of Christianity is.







"I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy"

Dorothy Parker

ProfessorDavey

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Re: The downward trend continues
« Reply #24 on: March 04, 2016, 12:11:34 PM »
What I do celebrate is the soaring growth of Christianity in Africa ...
Evidence please.

Actually the highly respected WIN-Gallup International GLOBAL INDEX OF RELIGIOSITY AND ATHEISM doesn't suggest that at all. They surveyed religiosity in a ranges of countries across the globe, including Africa, and their approach involves repeating the survey so that trends can be seen. So they surveyed a number of African countries (across all parts of the continent) in 2005 and again in 2012.

In all but one country religiosity (which will include Christianity) had either declined - the only exception being Ghana where religiosity remained the same. In one case (South Africa) there was a whacking reduction from 83% to 64% in the proportion of people saying they were religious. As you might expect in every case the proportion of atheists and non religious people had either increased or in one case remained static.

And the Pew Research centre expects the proportion of christians in both North Africa and Sub Saharan Africa to decline through to 2050. In North Africa from 3.7% to 3.1%, and in Sub-saharan Africa a drop from 62% to 58%.

And overall they predict the global proportion of christians to remain static.

So much for the soaring growth of Christianity, whether in Africa or globally.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2016, 12:26:08 PM by ProfessorDavey »