Author Topic: The downward trend continues  (Read 34360 times)

Shaker

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Re: The downward trend continues
« Reply #25 on: March 04, 2016, 12:15:35 PM »
Yeah, well, you can prove anything with facts, can't you.

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Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Shaker

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Re: The downward trend continues
« Reply #26 on: March 04, 2016, 12:47:13 PM »
I know what you mean but it actually makes me feel quite sad. Let others celebrate the fact, but I will mourn its passing.

The congregation of our local CofE church do a lot of good stuff in our village. My wife helps out, but as is so often the case the real momentum comes from people who are quite old. When that generation dies out... I just wonder sometimes at what we might be on the brink of losing without realising it.
Lovely post.

I suspect that I sit somewhat uneasily somewhere in the middle. Religion tends to become a pain in the arse when it gets organised, and the idea of an established state church in the Britain of 2016 seems to me a self-evident absurdity. I suspect that falling attendance and dwindling influence amongst other social changes will make the status quo untenable sooner rather later and lead to disestablishment in the not too distant future. I won't lament that.

Organisation and establishment however are entirely separate matters from whatever good the C of E may do - and that surely is beyond dispute to some extent. I would imagine - hope, in fact - that the same situation pertains to the C of E as it does with Catholicism: that's to say, a lay membership at odds with (by that I mean, significantly more liberal, tolerant, open-minded, progressive, whatever word you care to use) than the leadership. On the other hand, it could be entirely the opposite - I don't know; maybe somebody does.

I do know that there are aspects of the C of E which to me are inevitably bound up with nebulous notions of Englishness. These are the things that John Betjeman called "all the inessentials of faith" - he meant the ecclesiastical buildings and their architecture, the stained glass, the wheezy organs and often equally wheezy organists and so forth. I know full well and don't need to be told that this feeds into a hazy, highly romanticised view of Englishness and the C of E; this is the world of John Major's much-mocked elderly spinsters cycling through the mist to Evensong and what have you. It's more the cosy C of E of The Vicar of Dibley than of Rev.. These ideas didn't come out of nowhere however and do persist in the English psyche. How much of that would remain if the C of E went the way of most of its current active membership, and for how long, are fraught questions. Churches and cathedrals are expensive to keep relatively spick and span; their loss would be a catastrophic national impoverishment regardless of whether they're used for their intended purpose or are part of the heritage industry.

What the next twenty to thirty years holds (which I may well live to see), when the current churchgoers have gone to their reward, remains to be seen.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2016, 12:56:21 PM by Shaker »
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: The downward trend continues
« Reply #27 on: March 04, 2016, 01:04:13 PM »
Lovely post.

I suspect that I sit somewhat uneasily somewhere in the middle. Religion tends to become a pain in the arse when it gets organised, and the idea of an established state church in the Britain of 2016 seems to me a self-evident absurdity. I suspect that falling attendance and dwindling influence amongst other social changes will make the status quo untenable sooner rather later and lead to disestablishment in the not too distant future. I won't lament that.

Organisation and establishment however are entirely separate matters from whatever good the C of E may do - and that surely is beyond dispute to some extent. I would imagine - hope, in fact - that the same situation pertains to the C of E as it does with Catholicism: that's to say, a lay membership at odds with (by that I mean, significantly more liberal, tolerant, open-minded, progressive, whatever word you care to use) than the leadership. On the other hand, it could be entirely the opposite - I don't know; maybe somebody does.

I do know that there are aspects of the C of E which to me are inevitably bound up with nebulous notions of Englishness. These are the things that John Betjeman called "all the inessentials of faith" - he meant the ecclesiastical buildings and their architecture, the stained glass, the wheezy organs and often equally wheezy organists and so forth. I know full well and don't need to be told that this feeds into a hazy, highly romanticised view of Englishness and the C of E; this is the world of John Major's much-mocked elderly spinsters cycling through the mist to Evensong and what have you. These ideas didn't come out of nowhere however and do persist in the English psyche. How much of that would remain if the C of E went the way of most of its current active membership, and for how long, are fraught questions. Churches and cathedrals are expensive to keep relatively spick and span; their loss would be a catastrophic national impoverishment regardless of whether they're used for their intended purpose or are part of the heritage industry.
I think there is a significant difference between village on the one hand and town/city on the other.

I can certainly see how a village church has always been at the heart of the village, for everyone, not just worshippers, and its decline or loss is, to an extent, akin to the loss of the village shop, post office, school or pub.

But I don't think the same thing holds in towns and cities with lots of churches and also a much wider range of community amenities. I don't think a single church has anything like the same importance or visibility in those communities. So in my part of my small city there are a whole range of churches or all sorts of denominations, and they do lots of stuff - but the vast majority of that stuff is aimed squarely at their own sub-population of worshippers. If you aren't a worshipper their impact on your life is close to zero.

And it is interesting that you bring up those traditional elements that many of us non believers hold rather dear - so the feel of the wooden pews and the light through the stained glass windows. The traditional organ playing and choral singing etc. But many of those are being sidelined not by the non believers but by the churches themselves who want to modernise - so out go the pews, replaced by modern comfortable chairs. Not going to invest in an organ, nope music is now from some excruciating 'folk' group - traditional choral singing - well no interest, no-one to lead it, old fashioned, out with that.

I suspect most of the churches around my way are much more likely to be filled with traditional church choral music when they are hired out to the local secular choral societies or schools for their choirs rather than as part of their normal worship.

Sure there is a difference in the prestige cathedrals who tend to retain a recognition of the importance of traditional music, but I think this is gone or near to gone in many more local churches.

Rhiannon

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Re: The downward trend continues
« Reply #28 on: March 04, 2016, 01:05:27 PM »
The English church is a part of who we are; this is part of the tragedy of it. But I always felt it immoral to raise and spend the kind of money we had to on a building, not least because it wasn't used by that many people, or on a regular basis. It really is unchristian (and as I say I felt that deeply when I was one); quite what the solution is though I have no idea.

Shaker

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Re: The downward trend continues
« Reply #29 on: March 04, 2016, 01:07:55 PM »
The English church is a part of who we are; this is part of the tragedy of it. But I always felt it immoral to raise and spend the kind of money we had to on a building, not least because it wasn't used by that many people, or on a regular basis. It really is unchristian (and as I say I felt that deeply when I was one); quite what the solution is though I have no idea.
That's my sentiment exactly. It's easy enough to see the problem; what the solution is I haven't a bleeding clue.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Brownie

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Re: The downward trend continues
« Reply #30 on: March 04, 2016, 01:11:16 PM »
Rhiannon, I have ordered ''Small Boat, Big Sea'' by Peter Owen Jones.  The other one you mentioned is not out in paperback yet, I'll wait for that if I like the first one.  I see he has written quite a few books.

I didn't recognise his name but when I looked him up, I recognised Peter Owen Jones from the television series where he walked in the steps of St Francis of Assisi, carrying no money.  I didn't see all of it but do remember the one where he stayed with the Ethiopian Orthodox and found that quite moving and interesting.

What surprises me are posts on this thread decrying the control and influence the CofE has on the general public.  I acknowledge that was the case in years gone by, the church certainly was an authoritative body which has been well documented in history and fiction, but surely that is not so in recent years.  I cannot remember any great CofE influence in my lifetime and I'm 66.
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: The downward trend continues
« Reply #31 on: March 04, 2016, 01:17:19 PM »
The English church is a part of who we are; this is part of the tragedy of it. But I always felt it immoral to raise and spend the kind of money we had to on a building, not least because it wasn't used by that many people, or on a regular basis. It really is unchristian (and as I say I felt that deeply when I was one); quite what the solution is though I have no idea.
It is simply untenable for the CofE to retain the number of churches it currently has, given the cost of maintaining them.

As an example, from my home a brisk 30 minute walk would take to any of 9 Church of England churches. And while no doubt all would claim to be serving their local community the numbers attending will be pretty low and dwindling. Maintaining 9 churches is simply unsustainable.

Now of those 9, one is a cathedral, another is seriously old - there are then a block of Victorian vintage, some being rather more impressive than others, and a clutch which are extremely nondescript mid 20thC, with virtually no architectural or heritage interest. Sure there would be some who would kick up a fuss, but selling those for brown field redevelopment would be no great loss to the community at all.

Rhiannon

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Re: The downward trend continues
« Reply #32 on: March 04, 2016, 01:24:28 PM »
And here we have four medieval churches each a five minute drive from the other, with a larger very important church another mile past that. Can't be demolished, and an area like this doesn't need loads of community centres, museums and the like. Really the only use would be to convert them into dwellings - maybe church conversions will one day be as ubiquitous as barn conversions are.

Shaker

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Re: The downward trend continues
« Reply #33 on: March 04, 2016, 01:29:09 PM »
Rhiannon, I have ordered ''Small Boat, Big Sea'' by Peter Owen Jones.  The other one you mentioned is not out in paperback yet, I'll wait for that if I like the first one.  I see he has written quite a few books.

I didn't recognise his name but when I looked him up, I recognised Peter Owen Jones from the television series where he walked in the steps of St Francis of Assisi, carrying no money. I didn't see all of it but do remember the one where he stayed with the Ethiopian Orthodox and found that quite moving and interesting.
That I think was Extreme Pilgrim, which I enjoyed very much (and which spawned an absolutely fascinating book quite unlike the TV series). The follow up, Around the World in 80 Faiths, was a grave disappointment only insofar as it was too ambitious and had too much material for the constraints of that particular series, and ended up being rather whistlestop and superficial.

Quote
What surprises me are posts on this thread decrying the control and influence the CofE has on the general public.  I acknowledge that was the case in years gone by, the church certainly was an authoritative body which has been well documented in history and fiction, but surely that is not so in recent years.  I cannot remember any great CofE influence in my lifetime and I'm 66.
I think that's more to do with dwindling power in an increasingly non-Christian population. It took until 1994 to get women priests; and the urge to meddle in the choices of people in their private lives - opposition to equal civil marriage; continued opposition to assisted suicide - is still very much alive.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: The downward trend continues
« Reply #34 on: March 04, 2016, 01:30:53 PM »
And here we have four medieval churches each a five minute drive from the other, with a larger very important church another mile past that. Can't be demolished, and an area like this doesn't need loads of community centres, museums and the like. Really the only use would be to convert them into dwellings - maybe church conversions will one day be as ubiquitous as barn conversions are.
Perhaps so.

But my point was that not all CofE churches are interesting from a heritage perspective. So CofE, in many areas, could reduce it's number of churches and it's cost of maintaining them by selling off those that have no heritage value. I think those are quite likely to be in areas of our towns and cities that are mainly residential and built from the 1920s onward, so the land would be prime real estate for redevelopment as housing, which is of course what we desperately need. So the CofE would reduce its maintenance costs while also generating significant additional capital which would help to maintain the really interesting churches.

And I really don't buy this notion that we must throw money at the CofE hand over fist to ensure they can retain the churches and maintain them. We don't do that in other areas, do we. So if a family owns a stately home and can no longer afford upkeep we don't simply subsidise them. We may expect them to sell, perhaps to the National Trust etc and then they become the custodians of the heritage. What doesn't seem right is to allow an organisation to be a very poor custodian of our heritage, in other words simply not to maintain the property.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: The downward trend continues
« Reply #35 on: March 04, 2016, 01:35:21 PM »
I think that's more to do with dwindling power in an increasingly non-Christian population. It took until 1994 to get women priests; and the urge to meddle in the choices of people in their private lives - opposition to equal civil marriage; continued opposition to assisted suicide - is still very much alive.
I think the CofE fails to recognise how little authority it has in the general population. Somehow they seem to see themselves still as speaking for everyone, because of the anachronism of establishment. But they don't, really their authority base is about 1 million people, those they themselves see as their members, and that's just about 2% of the population. For the vast majority, the 98%, this isn't 'their' organisation at all, it doesn't stand for them, represent them and in most cases its disappearance as an organisation would actually cause barely a ripple in their lives.

Bubbles

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Re: The downward trend continues
« Reply #36 on: March 04, 2016, 01:39:13 PM »
Christianity in Western Europe is a bit like the Bruce Willis character in the Sixth Sense - it's dead but it doesn't realise it.

As for other parts of the world? Yeah, Christianity tends to flourish where levels of education are low. 

Remember this mantra:  "Education, Education, Education"

Education is the single most devastating response to religion and VD. Where there are good standards of education there are less of these two problems.


So, what about Africa then?  Well, we've all seen the brand of Christianity in Africa.  Here are some examples of what happens when Christians replace African superstitions with their own ones.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/1376692.stm
 

http://ictr-archive09.library.cornell.edu/ENGLISH/cases/Musabyimana/indictment/indictment.html

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/12/13/AR2006121301948.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/3561365.stm

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10294529

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-13507474

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/apr/08/catholic-church-apologise-failure-rwanda-genocide-vatican

Want some more examples of Christian love?

A government minister in Ghana has called on the country's intelligence forces to round up all gays.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/ghana-official-calls-for-effort-to-round-up-suspected-gays-2318507.html

From Ghana's Christian Council:

If you've got the intestinal fortitude you can read the rest of it online

Then we have the African church and their open opposition to the use of condoms which has led to disease and death.

Yup.  Christian missionaries spreading their bigotry and hatred has influenced these deeply superstitious people; I doubt anyone has caused more damage to traditional African lifestyles.

===============================================

What about China?

Well we know about the millions who died during the Christian-led Tai Ping Rebellion

Any Christian movement in China will be inscrutably monitored by the government.  They'll come down hard on anything they deem to be at odds with their own policies and doctrines.  They've already appointed their own Catholic bishop independently of Rome. 

If Christianity has any chance of flourishing in China then it will have to prostitute itself by making compromises that appeal to the Chinese and by doing so will become a quite different Christianity to whatever brand of snake oil you're familiar with.   

In any event, the Chinese view Christianity as a western movement so it's unlikely to reach the level of acceptance it gained in Europe and America.  China is a completely different animal from the west. Read your history and you'll see that Christianity was in China around the same time that it was establishing itself in Rome yet it lost out to the established religion and culture that already existed.

There's every likelihood this will happen again. China will run the show and it will be on their terms and always maintaining their culture at the expense of whatever your idea of Christianity is.

This is 2004 but.....

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/3561365.stm


Apparently a lot converted to Islam

Not sure that's going to help

Shaker

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Re: The downward trend continues
« Reply #37 on: March 04, 2016, 01:47:00 PM »
I think the CofE fails to recognise how little authority it has in the general population. Somehow they seem to see themselves still as speaking for everyone, because of the anachronism of establishment. But they don't, really their authority base is about 1 million people, those they themselves see as their members, and that's just about 2% of the population. For the vast majority, the 98%, this isn't 'their' organisation at all, it doesn't stand for them, represent them and in most cases its disappearance as an organisation would actually cause barely a ripple in their lives.
Yes, exactly. Establishment seems to lend itself to the view in the minds of many of the hierarchy that it's still 1955 (if that).
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

wigginhall

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Re: The downward trend continues
« Reply #38 on: March 04, 2016, 01:50:33 PM »
And here we have four medieval churches each a five minute drive from the other, with a larger very important church another mile past that. Can't be demolished, and an area like this doesn't need loads of community centres, museums and the like. Really the only use would be to convert them into dwellings - maybe church conversions will one day be as ubiquitous as barn conversions are.

Just thinking about Terrington St Clement, quite close by, which has a ginormous church, called the 'cathedral of the fens' sometimes.  I suppose it was built in affluent times, with money from the wool trade.  168 feet long, and it has a tower sitting next to it, which I think was supposed to go on top, but they bottled out. 

I'm sure it will survive both as a functioning church and a historic monument,  but the smaller churches nearby are closing already, and of course, chapels get converted into houses, carpet warehouses, and so on.
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Rhiannon

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Re: The downward trend continues
« Reply #39 on: March 04, 2016, 01:52:01 PM »
I think the CofE fails to recognise how little authority it has in the general population. Somehow they seem to see themselves still as speaking for everyone, because of the anachronism of establishment. But they don't, really their authority base is about 1 million people, those they themselves see as their members, and that's just about 2% of the population. For the vast majority, the 98%, this isn't 'their' organisation at all, it doesn't stand for them, represent them and in most cases its disappearance as an organisation would actually cause barely a ripple in their lives.

No, it isn't quite that. Rather than think they speak for everyone, they think they know what is best for everyone. As far as the CofE is concerned, part of its job is to give God's guidance to people; the fact it is established means it is used to doing so through the legislature of the country. It really doesn't matter to them whether or not the majority agree; God's laws apply to all. It's for our own good.

Rhiannon

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Re: The downward trend continues
« Reply #40 on: March 04, 2016, 01:57:28 PM »
Just thinking about Terrington St Clement, quite close by, which has a ginormous church, called the 'cathedral of the fens' sometimes.  I suppose it was built in affluent times, with money from the wool trade.  168 feet long, and it has a tower sitting next to it, which I think was supposed to go on top, but they bottled out. 

I'm sure it will survive both as a functioning church and a historic monument,  but the smaller churches nearby are closing already, and of course, chapels get converted into houses, carpet warehouses, and so on.

My village church is stupidly big; what the hell it will lend itself to on closure I have no idea. But the two nearby town churches will be fine, not least because they are also concert venues. And the chapels have decamped to a warehouse share on the industrial estate.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: The downward trend continues
« Reply #41 on: March 04, 2016, 02:01:55 PM »
My village church is stupidly big; what the hell it will lend itself to on closure I have no idea. But the two nearby town churches will be fine, not least because they are also concert venues. And the chapels have decamped to a warehouse share on the industrial estate.
But if the CofE flogged off their most uninteresting churches in areas where there is clear oversupply then they'd be able to raise significant capital that would keep other churches going, including where it is the only one in a centre of population, even if that is rather too large for the congregation, but may be of historical and heritage importance.

wigginhall

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Re: The downward trend continues
« Reply #42 on: March 04, 2016, 02:05:02 PM »
I have to mention here those magnificent Norfolk villages, Wiggenhall St Mary the Virgin, and Wiggenhall St Mary Magdelene, which some people think are relics from before the Reformation.   I mean, their very Catholic names were not changed, because nobody knew where the hell they are.   The churches are classed as 'redundant', but are quite pretty.   I don't know what will happen to them. 

There are many Wiggenhalls round here, and of course, I am the illegitimate scion of a Wiggenhall coupled with a local bar-maid, who was called Upsy-Getsy, for some reason. 
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Gordon

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Re: The downward trend continues
« Reply #43 on: March 04, 2016, 02:05:38 PM »
There is also the disproportionate news coverage, such as what the AofC decides to tell his flock at Easter is somehow thought relevant enough to feature on the likes of the mainstream national news on the BBC.

What he thinks may well be of interest to his paying customers, so to speak, who he can presumably reach via his organisation, but why on earth it is assumed relevant for the rest of us to be routinely told what the AofC or CofE thinks on anything beats me; it just encourages their delusions of grandeur. 
« Last Edit: March 04, 2016, 02:10:41 PM by Gordon »

Rhiannon

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Re: The downward trend continues
« Reply #44 on: March 04, 2016, 02:06:06 PM »
But if the CofE flogged off their most uninteresting churches in areas where there is clear oversupply then they'd be able to raise significant capital that would keep other churches going, including where it is the only one in a centre of population, even if that is rather too large for the congregation, but may be of historical and heritage importance.

Not disagreeing for a minute. Practical with unlisted churches in urban areas. Not so easy in the sticks where most are too important to demolish and few alternative uses are obvious.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: The downward trend continues
« Reply #45 on: March 04, 2016, 02:23:40 PM »
Not disagreeing for a minute. Practical with unlisted churches in urban areas. Not so easy in the sticks where most are too important to demolish and few alternative uses are obvious.
Which is, I guess, why we have the National Trust etc. I suspect quite a few will end up with different custodians. Bit like this one:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Trinity_Church,_Privett

I know this one quite well as my brother lives close by and it is regularly used for concerts and a whole range of other events.

Rhiannon

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Re: The downward trend continues
« Reply #46 on: March 04, 2016, 02:28:08 PM »
Which is, I guess, why we have the National Trust etc. I suspect quite a few will end up with different custodians. Bit like this one:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Trinity_Church,_Privett

I know this one quite well as my brother lives close by and it is regularly used for concerts and a whole range of other events.

Small village churches don't lend themselves to that kind of thing. No parking, poor facilities - many don't have mains drainage - one near me has a compost loo. And there are two churches already both renowned for their music performances eight miles apart.

It's really going to be a case of locking the doors and hoping they don't fall down, as fortune current redundant churches. Unless they get converted for private use.

Brownie

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Re: The downward trend continues
« Reply #47 on: March 04, 2016, 03:00:21 PM »
There are churches for sale, ideal for conversion to dwellings if a property developer wants to buy.  Many are on the market for a very long time, falling into disrepair.  It seems that people are reluctant to live in a place that was once consecrated, superstition I suppose.

And here we have four medieval churches each a five minute drive from the other, with a larger very important church another mile past that. Can't be demolished, and an area like this doesn't need loads of community centres, museums and the like. Really the only use would be to convert them into dwellings - maybe church conversions will one day be as ubiquitous as barn conversions are.
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: The downward trend continues
« Reply #48 on: March 04, 2016, 03:18:13 PM »
Small village churches don't lend themselves to that kind of thing. No parking, poor facilities - many don't have mains drainage - one near me has a compost loo. And there are two churches already both renowned for their music performances eight miles apart.

It's really going to be a case of locking the doors and hoping they don't fall down, as fortune current redundant churches. Unless they get converted for private use.
Or get taken over by the Churches Conservation Trust or other similar organisations. Sure that's what happened to the Privett church and it gets used regularly for events but I think there are plenty of other churches where the goal is simply preservation of our heritage.

OH MY WORLD!

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Re: The downward trend continues
« Reply #49 on: March 04, 2016, 03:45:10 PM »
Old news is that Khatru is wrong again.

"Cracks in the atheist edifice"

http://www.economist.com/news/briefing/21629218-rapid-spread-christianity-forcing-official-rethink-religion-cracks

State atheism failing. Persecution of Christianity is how it all began. Thank God the atheist government doesn't learn from history.

http://www.businessinsider.com/chinas-soaring-christian-population-threatens-to-undermine-the-communist-partys-state-sponsored-atheism-2015-5