Author Topic: The downward trend continues  (Read 33529 times)

Shaker

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Re: The downward trend continues
« Reply #50 on: March 04, 2016, 04:16:55 PM »
Old news is that Khatru is wrong again.

"Cracks in the atheist edifice"

http://www.economist.com/news/briefing/21629218-rapid-spread-christianity-forcing-official-rethink-religion-cracks

State atheism failing. Persecution of Christianity is how it all began. Thank God the atheist government doesn't learn from history.

http://www.businessinsider.com/chinas-soaring-christian-population-threatens-to-undermine-the-communist-partys-state-sponsored-atheism-2015-5
There has only ever been one officially state atheist country and that was Albania for a few years under Enver Hoxha. Otherwise countries such as the UK, the Netherlands and the Scandinavian nations are characterised by very high levels of what Phil Zuckerman calls organic atheism. This isn't imposed by anyone but, as the name implies, grows/develops naturally. You must surely be aware of the growth of this in North America.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2016, 04:44:19 PM by Shaker »
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ippy

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Re: The downward trend continues
« Reply #51 on: March 04, 2016, 04:29:07 PM »
Old news is that Khatru is wrong again.

"Cracks in the atheist edifice"

http://www.economist.com/news/briefing/21629218-rapid-spread-christianity-forcing-official-rethink-religion-cracks

State atheism failing. Persecution of Christianity is how it all began. Thank God the atheist government doesn't learn from history.

http://www.businessinsider.com/chinas-soaring-christian-population-threatens-to-undermine-the-communist-partys-state-sponsored-atheism-2015-5

Unfortunately all of the things you like to do woody are in decline you tell me your not chopping down so many trees these days and your Ju Ju in the sky beliefs are on their way out too, never mind you've still got all of those more numerous day by day non-believers like us to keep you company, so it's not all bad.

ippy 

ProfessorDavey

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Re: The downward trend continues
« Reply #52 on: March 04, 2016, 05:02:29 PM »
Old news is that Khatru is wrong again.

"Cracks in the atheist edifice"

http://www.economist.com/news/briefing/21629218-rapid-spread-christianity-forcing-official-rethink-religion-cracks

State atheism failing. Persecution of Christianity is how it all began. Thank God the atheist government doesn't learn from history.

http://www.businessinsider.com/chinas-soaring-christian-population-threatens-to-undermine-the-communist-partys-state-sponsored-atheism-2015-5
The increased visibility of christianity in China doesn't necessarily reflect an actual rise in the numbers of Christians (although it may do to an extent). Rather this is likely to be mainly down to an increased state tolerance towards Christianity and therefore allowing Christians to worship more openly.

This often happens when a country becomes less authoritarian.

You could ask another question - how many atheists are there in Saudi Arabia - currently it would be very difficult to know as to declare oneself as being atheist risks being prosecuted and punished severely. However, no doubt there are plenty of atheists in Saudi, but most are too scared to admit it. So imagine what would happen if Saudi became more tolerant, allowing atheists to declare their atheism with out risk of reprisal (in the manner that China has started to do for Christianity). What you would see would be an apparent sudden increase in atheism in Saudi - actually this would largely be due to longstanding atheists feeling safe to declare themselves as such. And of course this is largely the position in China for Christians.

If you really want to know about trends, you need to look at countries where there is a broad freedom to declare as a worshiper of any religion, or of none including atheism and has been over a significant period of time. Under those circumstance, and worldwide, we see a trend away from religiosity toward being non religious or atheist.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: The downward trend continues
« Reply #53 on: March 04, 2016, 05:10:32 PM »
Unfortunately all of the things you like to do woody are in decline you tell me your not chopping down so many trees these days and your Ju Ju in the sky beliefs are on their way out too
Ippy's lost it!

Shaker

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Re: The downward trend continues
« Reply #54 on: March 04, 2016, 06:04:00 PM »
You could ask another question - how many atheists are there in Saudi Arabia - currently it would be very difficult to know as to declare oneself as being atheist risks being prosecuted and punished severely. However, no doubt there are plenty of atheists in Saudi, but most are too scared to admit it. So imagine what would happen if Saudi became more tolerant, allowing atheists to declare their atheism with out risk of reprisal (in the manner that China has started to do for Christianity). What you would see would be an apparent sudden increase in atheism in Saudi - actually this would largely be due to longstanding atheists feeling safe to declare themselves as such. And of course this is largely the position in China for Christians.

Atheism "explodes" in Saudi Arabia: http://goo.gl/Ezg6Ea
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

ippy

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Re: The downward trend continues
« Reply #55 on: March 04, 2016, 06:48:48 PM »
Ippy's lost it!

Hi there Vlad, good days, bad days, what's the trouble this time?

ippy


Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: The downward trend continues
« Reply #56 on: March 04, 2016, 06:58:39 PM »
Hi there Vlad, good days, bad days, what's the trouble this time?

ippy
I'm afraid it's ''Ju Ju Sky beliefs Ippy'', sounds a bit cough-cough nose touch nose touch old fashioned patronisingly imperialist to me.

Shaker

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Re: The downward trend continues
« Reply #57 on: March 04, 2016, 07:11:30 PM »
I see you've added to your store of words you don't understand and misuse, Vlad.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

ippy

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Re: The downward trend continues
« Reply #58 on: March 04, 2016, 09:49:25 PM »
I'm afraid it's ''Ju Ju Sky beliefs Ippy'', sounds a bit cough-cough nose touch nose touch old fashioned patronisingly imperialist to me.

Sky Pixie?

ippy

Khatru

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Re: The downward trend continues
« Reply #59 on: March 04, 2016, 10:03:26 PM »
Old news is that Khatru is wrong again.

"Cracks in the atheist edifice"

http://www.economist.com/news/briefing/21629218-rapid-spread-christianity-forcing-official-rethink-religion-cracks

State atheism failing. Persecution of Christianity is how it all began. Thank God the atheist government doesn't learn from history.

http://www.businessinsider.com/chinas-soaring-christian-population-threatens-to-undermine-the-communist-partys-state-sponsored-atheism-2015-5

Yeah, I was lying about Christianity's part in the Rwandan genocide and their treatment of gays.

All the links I posted where made up.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2016, 10:38:54 AM by Khatru »
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Hope

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Re: The downward trend continues
« Reply #60 on: March 05, 2016, 09:26:51 PM »
I was only trying to cheer up the non-religious, I wasn't arguing anything I was just pointing out this decline measured by the C of E themselves.

ippy
IIRC, ippy, it was the church who brought the decline to public attention several decades ago.  Perhaps more importantly, as we've pointed out before, a smaller more knowledgeable Church will probably have a greater influence than a bunch of people who had little understanding and simply followed on from their parents or grandparents.
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Shaker

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Re: The downward trend continues
« Reply #61 on: March 06, 2016, 01:46:37 AM »
IIRC, ippy, it was the church who brought the decline to public attention several decades ago.  Perhaps more importantly, as we've pointed out before, a smaller more knowledgeable Church will probably have a greater influence than a bunch of people who had little understanding and simply followed on from their parents or grandparents.
The church will certainly be smaller as all the trends point that way but I'm interested to know why you think it will be more knowledgeable - knowledgeable of what, exactly? - and why it will "probably" have more influence.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: The downward trend continues
« Reply #62 on: March 06, 2016, 10:26:29 AM »
IIRC, ippy, it was the church who brought the decline to public attention several decades ago.  Perhaps more importantly, as we've pointed out before, a smaller more knowledgeable Church will probably have a greater influence than a bunch of people who had little understanding and simply followed on from their parents or grandparents.
Agreed. The future church will be those who have been challenged by Christ and by a fairly harsh environment in which alienation is rife.

Hope

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Re: The downward trend continues
« Reply #63 on: March 06, 2016, 04:46:54 PM »
The church will certainly be smaller as all the trends point that way but I'm interested to know why you think it will be more knowledgeable - knowledgeable of what, exactly? - and why it will "probably" have more influence.
OK, as scholarship improves and as we obtain a larger and larger number of older and older documents that the Biblical documents can be compared with (the Dead Sea Scrolls are only one example), so we get a greater understanding of the Bible - and often of the way in which its contents have been abused by the rich and powerful in order to control the masses.  We also discover ways in which ancient Jewish thought differed from the way the Jewish leaders of Jesus' times were teaching - for instance the idea that the first 11 chapters of Genesis is no more historical treatment of the early days of earth than the Lord of the Rings.

As for how it will have more influence than the Church today, one only has to look at how change has occurred down the centuries.  Small groups of determined and vocal people have impacted dramatically on society throughout history, both recent and not so recent.


Regarding the numbers, whilst the last 90-odd years have seen a proportionate decline in church attendance, there are a couple of complications about this.  That decline is based on the figures that existed pre-1st World War.  What we don't know is what the figures were a further 90 years before that  - when church attendance was compulsory, and even chapel (ie non-conformist) attendance was largely regarded as non-attendance by the authorities.

More importantly, is the figure of believers (as opposed to attendees).  We are often told that mid-20th century censuses gave a figure of about 75% of the population who claimed allegiance to the term 'Christian', and that that figure has dropped year on year ever since.

As far as I'm aware, the British Social Attitudes Survey started in 1983 so whilst that gives a pretty good indication of what has happened in that 30+ years since, there is no such data to tell us whether the starting point was a high/low in the first place.  We do have some indication that, in South Wales at least, the numbers of believers at the turn of the 20th century was comparatively small (was that common across the rest of the UK?)

We have no way of deciding whether there had been a static proportion of the population as believers (as opposed to attendees) for several centuries followed by a steadly decline through the 20th century as some would like to suggest, or whether the numbers have fluctuated over a period of 2 to 4 generations over those same centuries.

I think that it is probably far too early to claim that Christianity, or religion as a whole, is on its way out permanently.  We could yet be told by future scientific research that having a religious belief is a natural human instinct and that those who feel that they can do without one are somehow 'damaged'.  Who knows.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2016, 04:50:22 PM by Hope »
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jjohnjil

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Re: The downward trend continues
« Reply #64 on: March 06, 2016, 09:11:30 PM »
OK, as scholarship improves and as we obtain a larger and larger number of older and older documents that the Biblical documents can be compared with (the Dead Sea Scrolls are only one example), so we get a greater understanding of the Bible - and often of the way in which its contents have been abused by the rich and powerful in order to control the masses.  We also discover ways in which ancient Jewish thought differed from the way the Jewish leaders of Jesus' times were teaching - for instance the idea that the first 11 chapters of Genesis is no more historical treatment of the early days of earth than the Lord of the Rings.

As for how it will have more influence than the Church today, one only has to look at how change has occurred down the centuries.  Small groups of determined and vocal people have impacted dramatically on society throughout history, both recent and not so recent.


Regarding the numbers, whilst the last 90-odd years have seen a proportionate decline in church attendance, there are a couple of complications about this.  That decline is based on the figures that existed pre-1st World War.  What we don't know is what the figures were a further 90 years before that  - when church attendance was compulsory, and even chapel (ie non-conformist) attendance was largely regarded as non-attendance by the authorities.

More importantly, is the figure of believers (as opposed to attendees).  We are often told that mid-20th century censuses gave a figure of about 75% of the population who claimed allegiance to the term 'Christian', and that that figure has dropped year on year ever since.

As far as I'm aware, the British Social Attitudes Survey started in 1983 so whilst that gives a pretty good indication of what has happened in that 30+ years since, there is no such data to tell us whether the starting point was a high/low in the first place.  We do have some indication that, in South Wales at least, the numbers of believers at the turn of the 20th century was comparatively small (was that common across the rest of the UK?)

We have no way of deciding whether there had been a static proportion of the population as believers (as opposed to attendees) for several centuries followed by a steadly decline through the 20th century as some would like to suggest, or whether the numbers have fluctuated over a period of 2 to 4 generations over those same centuries.

I think that it is probably far too early to claim that Christianity, or religion as a whole, is on its way out permanently.  We could yet be told by future scientific research that having a religious belief is a natural human instinct and that those who feel that they can do without one are somehow 'damaged'.  Who knows.

Sorry, Hope, your analysis is flawed here.  For many centuries in Britain religion has been force fed to the masses and ordinary people had little chance of believing anything else other than what the guy In the black robes, standing high above the congregation, was bellowing at them week after week!

For a great deal of that time, most in that congregation couldn't read and if they could, there were hardly any books that weren't spouting the Christian message.

Now there are plenty of ways Joe Bloggs can read about an alternative view.  Forums such as this help explode the myths and lies that have been rammed down the churchgoers throats for hundreds of years.

Now, even people like you are able to see that Genesis is fiction and one day even the TWs  Sasses and ABs will come to realise the truth! 

To think that as you grow smaller you'll have more influence is as big a myth as Jonah and the whale! 

Leonard James

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Re: The downward trend continues
« Reply #65 on: March 07, 2016, 05:44:00 AM »

Now, even people like you are able to see that Genesis is fiction and one day even the TWs  Sasses and ABs will come to realise the truth! 



Another memorable quote!

Hope

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Re: The downward trend continues
« Reply #66 on: March 07, 2016, 09:08:13 AM »
Sorry, Hope, your analysis is flawed here.  For many centuries in Britain religion has been force fed to the masses and ordinary people had little chance of believing anything else other than what the guy In the black robes, standing high above the congregation, was bellowing at them week after week!
Precisely, jj, which is largely what my analysis was pointing out.  Note that much the same can be said about politics over the centuries.  However, over the centuries there have been millions of people who have, in one way or other, chosen not to follow what the authorities were 'bellowing at them week after week'.  For instance, people like Richard Beake (see Khatru's thread of that name); the Pilgrim Fathers who chose to leave England rather than live under what they saw as the 'tyranny' of the Church of England; Mennonites, Anabaptists, Plymouth Brethren and many other non-conformist groups who either set up house here in Great Britain and stood up to ridicule and persecution from the authorities.  That was just within the religious realm.  In the political realm there have been the Lollards, the Luddites, the Chartists, etc. 

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For a great deal of that time, most in that congregation couldn't read and if they could, there were hardly any books that weren't spouting the Christian message.
Unfortunately, no-one has ever been able to show that the Christian message is, in itself, wrong.

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Now there are plenty of ways Joe Bloggs can read about an alternative view.  Forums such as this help explode the myths and lies that have been rammed down the churchgoers throats for hundreds of years.
Yet it was often the church-goers who initiated the exploding of the so-called 'myths and lies' by studying the Bible, pointing out that what was being taught as Biblical truth was wrong - not that the Bible was wrong. 

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Now, even people like you are able to see that Genesis is fiction and one day even the TWs  Sasses and ABs will come to realise the truth!
Oddly enough, I've never said that a single bit of Genesis is fiction; what I have stated is that scholars and an increasing number of believers are beginning to appreciate that different parts of that book are written in different literary genres - in much the same way that we already knew that that was the case in regard of the Bible as a whole.  There are some chronological, historical sections; there are some theological treatise sections; there are some law-setting sections; etc.  Furthermore, we are also beginning to realise that Jews held these understandings of their Scriptures as well.

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To think that as you grow smaller you'll have more influence is as big a myth as Jonah and the whale!
Actually, I think that we are already having far more influence than we were say 30 years ago.  There are far greater numbers of Christian (and other religious) groups working in areas such as homelessness, prison justice, trade justice, people trafficking, the environment, etc. than when I was young. 
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Gordon

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Re: The downward trend continues
« Reply #67 on: March 07, 2016, 09:16:56 AM »
I think, Hope, that your analysis in #63 is missing a couple of key points.

The first is that while even today in some areas religious influence is still significant, to the point that some cultures can still be described as theocratic to the extent that they regard apostasy and blasphemy as crimes, and where religion and politics are inextricably mixed, whereas in other areas such as here in the UK organised religion no longer has this type of influence, to the extent that we would regard the notion that blasphemy or apostasy were crimes as being primitive and perverse.

The other is of course the impact of education and wider social change. In those parts of the world where education is now well established, so that people are in general less credulous and more sceptical, living conditions are no longer major risks to health and happiness, society is more tolerant, there are secular influences at play and in general people have greater choice and more opportunities - such as here in the UK - the involvement in organised religion is now largely a matter of personal choice and it seems increasing numbers are voting with their feet. Even in the USA, with its almost child-like attachment to religion, there are signs that some there are now more prepared to say they are atheist are agnostic, although they aren't yet at the point where an American politician would be able to say they were a non-theist without it being political suicide.

If I had a crystal ball I'd predict that religion won't ever die out completely and will persist longer where education and social conditions are relatively poorest but, as these hopefully improve over the coming centuries, then I'd expect that religion will decline in influence and relevance, just as it has done here in the UK.
 

Sassy

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Re: The downward trend continues
« Reply #68 on: March 07, 2016, 09:30:26 AM »
I just worth it's worth a mention, I noticed that on both the B H A & the N S S sites have a report that came from the C of E about the continuing decline of their church attendence in England, it has fallen below the one million mark for the first time.

It's easy to find on both sights, via google or other browsers.

ippy

You have no idea of the signs of the times...


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2 Thessalonians 2King James Version (KJV)

2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;( falling away> yes?)

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.


8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.


11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:



You Ippy, Will you now believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God or will you continue to have no love for the truth?  :(

All things happen at the times God has planned. Falling away is a sign that the wicked one is about to be revealed.
It is sad that most will never have the warning signs you see or the proof in the words of the Apostles and Christ.
But there will be fewer warnings. At least consider the truth and read the bible fully. See how it lines up with present events and see how in those times they knew the events coming to pass today.
We know we have to work together to abolish war and terrorism to create a compassionate  world in which Justice and peace prevail. Love ;D   Einstein
 "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

Shaker

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Re: The downward trend continues
« Reply #69 on: March 07, 2016, 09:31:28 AM »
Unfortunately, no-one has ever been able to show that the Christian message is, in itself, wrong.
There's a name for that sort of sloppy thinking, you know ;)
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Hope

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Re: The downward trend continues
« Reply #70 on: March 07, 2016, 09:34:47 AM »
There's a name for that sort of sloppy thinking, you know ;)
Shaker-ism, iirc   ;)  Are you saying that you have been able to find material to show that the Christian message, in itself, is wrong? 
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Gordon

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Re: The downward trend continues
« Reply #71 on: March 07, 2016, 09:41:05 AM »
Shaker-ism, iirc   ;)  Are you saying that you have been able to find material to show that the Christian message, in itself, is wrong?

Nope - Shaker is simply pointing out what is glaringly obvious to all and sundry here: your obsessive attachment to the negative proof fallacy.

Shaker

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Re: The downward trend continues
« Reply #72 on: March 07, 2016, 09:42:04 AM »
Shaker-ism, iirc   ;)  Are you saying that you have been able to find material to show that the Christian message, in itself, is wrong?
No - you recall incorrectly (surprise surprise ...). It's called the negative proof fallacy - it's that error in reasoning that you can hardly put fingers to keyboard without committing.

A rational methodology seeks positive evidence for a particular assertion, not merely the absence of evidence against it. In the absence of such evidence the default position is scepticism, not credulity.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2016, 09:48:05 AM by Shaker »
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Hope

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Re: The downward trend continues
« Reply #73 on: March 07, 2016, 09:47:36 AM »
The first is that while even today in some areas religious influence is still significant, to the point that some cultures can still be described as theocratic to the extent that they regard apostasy and blasphemy as crimes, and where religion and politics are inextricably mixed, whereas in other areas such as here in the UK organised religion no longer has this type of influence, to the extent that we would regard the notion that blasphemy or apostasy were crimes as being primitive and perverse.
Interestingly, the early churh would have been in full agreement with your analysis.  It would seem to have changed, albeit slowly at first, once the religion was assimilated into society as a state religion. 

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... the involvement in organised religion is now largely a matter of personal choice and it seems increasing numbers are voting with their feet.
Ironically enough, this is getting back to the original way of things.

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If I had a crystal ball I'd predict that religion won't ever die out completely and will persist longer where education and social conditions are relatively poorest but, as these hopefully improve over the coming centuries, then I'd expect that religion will decline in influence and relevance, just as it has done here in the UK.
I think the problem with this is that even here in the UK, it is often the highly educated who have a faith.   I see a far smaller correlation between education and non-religiosity than you and others here would like there to be.
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Shaker

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Re: The downward trend continues
« Reply #74 on: March 07, 2016, 09:58:53 AM »
Nope - Shaker is simply pointing out what is glaringly obvious to all and sundry here: your obsessive attachment to the negative proof fallacy.
Given how many times this has been pointed out to him, I wonder what mental process is at work that allows him to continue to make the same error time after time after time?
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.