The downward trend continues

[Gordon]

On the BBC website currently - the findings of the most recent Scottish Social Attitudes survey show that the decline continues where over half of those living here in Scotland now say they have no religion: the Church of Scotland looks to be in big trouble.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-35953639

[ProfessorDavey]

On the BBC website currently - the findings of the most recent Scottish Social Attitudes survey show that the decline continues where over half of those living here in Scotland now say they have no religion: the Church of Scotland looks to be in big trouble.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-35953639

Inevitable and basically because the elderly, who are more religious than younger generations, are dying. It's called generational replacement and will result in a decline in religiosity for decades.

The only factor that might change this is immigration, which is the reason why RCC levels have remained relatively static.

[Rhiannon]

I also think this has a good deal of truth in it.

"As fewer Scots are acknowledging even a default religious identity, it is affiliation with the national church that is the hardest hit."

When I was growing up Anglicanism was the default church to which people belonged. A lot of people got their babies 'done' in CofE churches because it was expected of them, and it was good to have a party, and they sort of believed in baby Jesus at Christmas, and in heaven ... and most weddings happened in CofE churches because there wasn't anywhere else except for registry offices, which tended not to look so good in the photos. So if people felt vaguely Christian then the majority felt vaguely CofE.

That's changing as secular alternatives to baptism and wedding venues are becoming the norm. People no longer feel any affiliation to Anglicanism and many feel alienated by its values now which are do out of step with the rest of our society. This will be holding as true north of the border as it is down here.

[Nearly Sane]

There are some similarities between the CoS and the CoE, but one isn't established, and exists in what has generally been a more patchwork, and often divided religious background. I don't think the CoS has ever been the default church in the same was the CoE might have been.

[Rhiannon]

So if parents wanted to get their babies 'christened' or have a church wedding the CofS wasn't the default one to ask for non-Catholics as it is down here?

I don't think the CofE being established matters two hoots to to the English. It was the default church because it is present in every parish and by church law has to offer baptisms to all who ask, unlike both Catholic Churches and the other Protestant denominations. In practice is also offered weddings to anyone other than the divorced, and even then the rules can be tweaked. It was (and probably still is) the easiest place to do church hatches and matches regardless of whether you actually went to church, or even believed, and back in the day people liked to do that because it was the best opportunity for big frocks and nice photos and a party with Uncle Bill making a fool of himself. There are other options now so the church isn't needed even for that.

[Nearly Sane]

Not really, with the history of schisms in the CoS, there were plenty areas such as the Western Isles where it was a minority church. Additionally the Anglican Church in Scotland, the piskies, had a strong appeal to those who wanted to be a bit more progressive. Since in the West of Scotland, there has been such sectarianism, the idea of a default church doesn't work well.

[Rhiannon]

So why did the chap in the article think there was a default to the 'national church'? That's where I got the quote from.

[Gordon]

So why did the chap in the article think there was a default to the 'national church'? That's where I got the quote from.

I thought the same, and perhaps he is assuming that the C of S is somehow synonymous with the C of E.

[Rhiannon]

Well I know they aren't. So I'm assuming he doesn't.

He's a researcher for ScotCen. Presumably he knows about Scotland?

[Nearly Sane]

I think it relates back to the establishment question. The CoS having once been established is the closest to being a national church, whatever that might actually be. I think the phrase is used because it has a notion of that.

[Rhiannon]

Possibly.

Growing up where I did people didn't much care for denominations, churchgoing and nobody ever talked about the CofE being 'established' except maybe in lessons on Tudor history. The CofE was just the place you went to for christenings and (first) weddings.

[Sassy]

Possibly.

Growing up where I did people didn't much care for denominations, churchgoing and nobody ever talked about the CofE being 'established' except maybe in lessons on Tudor history. The CofE was just the place you went to for christenings and (first) weddings.

Right! Where did you grow up?

[floo]

Possibly.

Growing up where I did people didn't much care for denominations, churchgoing and nobody ever talked about the CofE being 'established' except maybe in lessons on Tudor history. The CofE was just the place you went to for christenings and (first) weddings.

Lucky, lucky you. I really, really wish I have never heard of god and Jesus when I was a kid.

[Brownie]

Had that been the case floo, you'd have heard about some other religion.  Apart from Soviet countries, everywhere has religion in their culture.  In the Soviet Union you would have been taught that religion is the opium of the people and Karl Marx's Das Kapital would have been your handbook!  There's no escaping religion altogether but we in the UK have the choice what to believe and if we believe.

[BeRational]

Had that been the case floo, you'd have heard about some other religion.  Apart from Soviet countries, everywhere has religion in their culture.  In the Soviet Union you would have been taught that religion is the opium of the people and Karl Marx's Das Kapital would have been your handbook!  There's no escaping religion altogether but we in the UK have the choice what to believe and if we believe.

It could have been a Scandinavian country were religion is very low.

[john]

Brownie

It seems to me that your ideas about "Soviet  countries" is incorrect. On the contrary they seem to be deeply Christian with all the hypocrisy that involves; intrinsically homophobic, etc.

[floo]

Had that been the case floo, you'd have heard about some other religion.  Apart from Soviet countries, everywhere has religion in their culture.  In the Soviet Union you would have been taught that religion is the opium of the people and Karl Marx's Das Kapital would have been your handbook!  There's no escaping religion altogether but we in the UK have the choice what to believe and if we believe.

What I mean is I would have been grateful if religion hadn't been thrust down my throat as a kid, and my parents had either been secular, or very moderate live and let live Christians.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

What I mean is I would have been grateful if religion hadn't been thrust down my throat as a kid, and my parents had either been secular, or very moderate live and let live Christians.

I don't understand why you haven't factored your parents out of the major ontological question.

[Brownie]

Brownie

It seems to me that your ideas about "Soviet  countries" is incorrect. On the contrary they seem to be deeply Christian with all the hypocrisy that involves; intrinsically homophobic, etc.

There aren't Soviet countries any more John, when the Soviets ruled atheism was the philosophy that was promoted (the church remained quite strong in Poland, the people hung onto it as a light at the end of the tunnel but Poland is not Russia).  I've no idea what the attitude to homosexuals was in those days, you are probably right about the homophobia, it wouldn't surprise me at all.

Now of course the Russian Orthodox church flourishes as do various other churches and sects - and a lot of homophobia and racism.  Can't win.

Floo, it is quite understandable that you wish your family hadn't been so steeped in church, quite a narrow, hardline church too from what you say.  I was really surprised the other day when you said your parents didn't have friends from church, only acquaintances!  One thing I've come across with people heavily involved in a church is that they have a lot of friends and friendships are fostered.  Interesting but that's by the by.  Anyway, I'm sure I wouldn't have liked that either so understand how you feel.  It couldn't have been all bad though, floo.  You must have had good times and you were well brought up, according to their lights.

[Shaker]

There aren't Soviet countries any more John, when the Soviets ruled atheism was the philosophy that was promoted (the church remained quite strong in Poland, the people hung onto it as a light at the end of the tunnel but Poland is not Russia). I've no idea what the attitude to homosexuals was in those days, you are probably right about the homophobia, it wouldn't surprise me at all.

Lenin was in some ways a man very much ahead of his time and mores - when the Bolsheviks took power Lenin had openly gay members in his cabinet, for example.

Lenin died young and was in power for only seven years; Stalin pretty much reversed all that.

Which just goes to show the difference in a country when you have a very highly intelligent, acute thinking individual succeeded by a psychopathic former bank robber, I guess.

[Brownie]

Quite.  There were many Jewish forward thinking, prominent intellectuals in pre-revolution Russia - and then anti-semitism reared its ugly head.  Horrible.

BeR: It could have been a Scandinavian country were religion is very low.
Well, there is ''low church''.....

[Rhiannon]

Lucky, lucky you. I really, really wish I have never heard of god and Jesus when I was a kid.

We learned about religion in school. A day act of Christian worship really was just that, complete with prayers and hymns. Church might not have featured but Christianity certainly did.

[Rhiannon]

Right! Where did you grow up?

Erm, let's think. I've mentioned the CofE.

England, possibly?

[Shaker]

Bulgaria?

[Hope]

We learned about religion in school. A day act of Christian worship really was just that, complete with prayers and hymns. Church might not have featured but Christianity certainly did.

Interestingly, whilst I went to a CofE secondary school with a sizeable chapel, we only had an assembly twice a week.  The school couldn't all fit in the chapel at once and for some reason it was felt inappropriate to have such an event in the school hall which would have held us all.