Seek ye first the Kingdom of God.

[Sassy]

Seek ye first the Kingdom of God.
Seek whilst it may still be found before it is too late.

5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?

46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

The return of Christ will happen at the appointed time. Believers are told to be ready. People need to be warned that these things will take place. Where will you be? Taken or left behind...

[bluehillside Retd.]

Another one for proselytising corner then.

[ippy]

Seek ye first the Kingdom of God.
Seek whilst it may still be found before it is too late.


The return of Christ will happen at the appointed time. Believers are told to be ready. People need to be warned that these things will take place. Where will you be? Taken or left behind...

This nonsense of yours is all assertion and something you can't possibly know, however much you would like to think you do.

ippy

[Sebastian Toe]

The return of Christ will happen at the appointed time. Believers are told to be ready. People need to be warned that these things will take place. Where will you be? Taken or left behind...

...or already dead, given that you don't know exactly 'when' this event will happen?

[Rhiannon]

Left behind's definitely the preferable option.

[Ricky Spanish]

Interesting that you use Matt 24 for your spurious claims.

If you read it carefully you will see that Jesus is warning his listener that in their lifetime there will be many calamities culminating in the arrival of the Son of Man: 30 "Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory." and it will occur whilst they are still alive: 33 "Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door. 34 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened."

He then goes on to explain he cannot give an exact date or time: 36 "But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father." - 44 "So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him." But still implies that the event will still occur in their lifetime.

Why does Jesus keep using the Son of Man reference, both here in Matthew and in the parallel verses in Mark? (Chapters 13 and 14.)

Who does Jesus think this "Son of Man" is?

[floo]

Seek ye first the Kingdom of God.
Seek whilst it may still be found before it is too late.


The return of Christ will happen at the appointed time. Believers are told to be ready. People need to be warned that these things will take place. Where will you be? Taken or left behind...

Oh for gawd's sake this nonsense could be spewed out in 2000 years time if some people still believe in the extreme version of Christianity!

[ippy]

Interesting that you use Matt 24 for your spurious claims.

If you read it carefully you will see that Jesus is warning his listener that in their lifetime there will be many calamities culminating in the arrival of the Son of Man: 30 "Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory." and it will occur whilst they are still alive: 33 "Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door. 34 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened."

He then goes on to explain he cannot give an exact date or time: 36 "But about that day or hour no ìone knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father." - 44 "So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him." But still implies that the event will still occur in their lifetime.

Why does Jesus keep using the Son of Man reference, both here in Matthew and in the parallel verses in Mark? (Chapters 13 and 14.)

Who does Jesus think this "Son of Man" is?

Does it matter?

Is it worth worrying about?

Is it likely Jesus  thought anything of the sort?

Who bloody cares?

ippy

[Dicky Underpants]

Who does Jesus think this "Son of Man" is?

There is a good case for thinking that he believed it to be a 'spiritual personage' different from himself (i.e. the figure from the Book of Daniel who appears at the Last Judgment). However, the gospel writers in various places seem to conflate the two. Sometimes the thing gets very confusing, since Jesus is reported as using the phrase "Son of man" to refer to himself, but only in the sense that we might say "Yours truly". However, in the judgmental references towards the end of the synoptic gospels, he seems to be using the phrase to refer to a figure different from himself (i.e. the Daniel character). Since we can hardly trust the gospels as reporting the exact words of Jesus, no one can tell for certain - except that the Son of Man has not shown up as predicted (now there's a surprise).

I wonder if Sassy (or any other 'End-timers') will ever be able to see that claims by Jesus "not knowing the day or the hour" do not preclude his claim to know the short time interval he thought there would be before the Apocalypse?

[Bubbles]

THE HOLY and UNHOLY PARROTS
A lady goes to see her priest one day and tells him, “Father, I have a problem. I have two female parrots, but they only know how to say one thing.” “What do they say?” the priest inquired. “They say, 'Hi, we’re hookers! Do you want to have some fun?' Isn't that awful?” the woman laments.

“That’s obscene!” the priest exclaimed. Then he thought for a moment. “You know,” he said, “I may have a solution to your problem. I have two male parrots who talk, and I have taught them to pray and read the Bible. Bring your two parrots over to my house, and we’ll put them in the cage with Francis and Job. My parrots can teach your parrots to praise and worship God, and your parrots are sure to stop saying... that... that indecent phrase...in no time.” “Thank you,” the woman responded, “this may very well be the solution!”

The next day, the woman brought her female parrots to the priest’s house. As he ushered the woman in, she saw that his two male parrots, Francis and Job, were inside their cage, holding rosary beads and actually praying, their pious little faces upturned toward heaven with beaks moving slightly as they prayed intently to the Lord.

Very impressed, the woman walked over and placed her parrots inside the cage with these very devout parrots. After a few minutes, sure enough, the female parrots cried out in unison: “Hi, we’re hookers! Do you want to have some fun?” A long moment of silence ensued. Shocked, one male parrot looked over at the other male parrot and exclaimed, “Put the beads away, Frank. Our prayers have been answered!”

[Dicky Underpants]

Does it matter?

Is it worth worrying about?

Is it likely Jesus  thought anything of the sort?

Who bloody cares?

ippy

There is a direct relevance for such preoccupations, and that involves the fundamentalist tendencies of the often rich American right-wing. Certain influential nut-jobs out there have often got the ear of presidents, and have used their belief that we are 'living in the Time of the End' as an excuse for not spending too much money on social reform and welfare, since 'Jesus is coming along soon to save his chosen ones'.
To demonstrate that in fact Jesus was completely mistaken has therefore some relevance. And as a historical phenomenon, the 'End-time' fervour of 1st century Jews is often thought worth considering, for those who want to learn something from history.

[Khatru]

I've looked in the cupboard under the stairs and it's not in there.

[OH MY WORLD!]

Well the truth is that Floo's own children believe in Christ's return. Second fact is there are two blank posts here from ippy and to start a back and forth with him would be like being alone.

Shakin it!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtsCA1I3qbk

[jeremyp]

Seek ye first the Kingdom of God.

I have sought the Kingdom of God. As a result of my seeking, I am pretty confident it does not exist.

[ippy]

I've looked in the cupboard under the stairs and it's not in there.

I didn't realise the depths you could go to Kh, I'm impressed.

So what you're saying DU, is we need to know how and where these nutty beliefs guide these people, without necessarily taking their beliefs that seriously?

Ippy

[Khatru]

When the author of Revelation said that Jesus was coming "soon" he really meant "soon".  Not, two thousand years later.

He who testifies to these things says, "Yes, I am coming soon." Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.

Rev 22:20

What's more, no less a person than Paul foretold that the end would come in his lifetime and that he'd be one of those who will fly up to heaven.

According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.  For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17

Check out the first words of Jesus in the oldest surviving gospel.  Very near is not over two thousand years.

The time has come,” he said. “The kingdom of God has come near. Repent and believe the good news!

Mark 1:15

Then there's Luke who says that "Even now the axe is lying at the root of the trees".  What he failed to mention is that two thousand years later it will still be lying there because his god has failed to pick it up. Of course, Luke wasn't thinking that his god would take that long. eh?

The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.

Luke 3:9

When is Jesus coming?

I think it's sometime soon. That's what I hear.

[Dicky Underpants]

When the author of Revelation said that Jesus was coming "soon" he really meant "soon".  Not, two thousand years later.

Yes, Khatru, the references you give (and there are many others, as Thrud will agree) indicate unequivocally that Jesus believed that the whole of history would be wound up a few decades after he was speaking - not over two thousand years later. On this question, I would say the message is completely clear from the gospels - but as I have pointed out, the Church has had nearly 2000 years of devious, disingenuous 'interpretation' to, first of all, quieten the voices of the confused and illiterate hoi-polloi, and subsequently numb the critical intelligence of those who got converted first and tried to think later.

[Dicky Underpants]

So what you're saying DU, is we need to know how and where these nutty beliefs guide these people, without necessarily taking their beliefs that seriously?

Ippy

Just typed a long reply to you, ippy, but the computer I was using refused to allow me to post it, and it was immediately dispatched into the void, and I can't retrieve it.

My answer is basically, yes. I think this is Thrud's approach too.
I'll name a few names which are relevant to my point. Ronald Reagan (and his wife Nancy), George Bush and the Reverend Ted Haggard, Sarah Palin (God forbid!) and the relationship between our own Tony Blair and Bush, with our former holy PM "feeling the Hand of History on his shoulder")

[Sassy]

Interesting that you use Matt 24 for your spurious claims.

If you read it carefully you will see that Jesus is warning his listener that in their lifetime there will be many calamities culminating in the arrival of the Son of Man: 30 "Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory." and it will occur whilst they are still alive: 33 "Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door. 34 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened."

6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

Christ clearly stating that the signs that will come before that generation has passed but that it is not the end is not yet.
He clearly goes on to say:-

36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

He then goes on to explain he cannot give an exact date or time: 36 "But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father." - 44 "So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him." But still implies that the event will still occur in their lifetime.

Why does Jesus keep using the Son of Man reference, both here in Matthew and in the parallel verses in Mark? (Chapters 13 and 14.)

Who does Jesus think this "Son of Man" is?

The parable of the fig tree explains that the things which will come to pass before their generation passes are that which is before the coming of Christ. But that the end is not yet come.

32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

So the things that pass are the warning signs the beginning of the end. When things are near.

It is amazing how many do not understand what is being said.
But you forget that for some that generation did not pass away. Jesus Christ is from that generation and is still living.
He has not passed away and has established the Kingdom before that generation passed.

What is it you really want from this passage.
It clearly shows that Christ did not say he would return before that generation passed away. But he did return from the dead before that generation passed away and was seen to ascend on the clouds and said he would return that way.

[Dicky Underpants]

What is it you really want from this passage.

That's the question you need to ask yourself.

[Leonard James]

That's the question you need to ask yourself.

Sass never questions herself, she is always right.

[Sassy]

That's the question you need to ask yourself.

Well let's see you substantiate that... I bet you can't on what is written.

[Leonard James]

Well let's see you substantiate that... I bet you can't on what is written.

Ignore her, Dicky! Let her bleat away on her own.

[Brownie]

Sass never questions herself, she is always right.

She believes she is right, so do many of us, including yourself Len.

[Shaker]

She believes she is right, so do many of us, including yourself Len.

Indeed - people aren't given to holding beliefs that they think are wrong.

But then there are beliefs which are internally consistent and can be backed up by evidence, and then there are beliefs that ... well, aren't and can't