God's Love?

[Bubbles]

Of course you're right Rose no really sophisticated religious organisation would even consider such a thing as gently drawing in new candidates in any way they can, or develop various ways doing so by trial and error probably over the last couple of thousand years, I must be one of those conspiracy theorists, after all nativity plays are only a bit of fun for the children of the next generation.   

ippy

Yes they are, because at primary school age they are hardly candidates,  especially if parents are non religious.

Having a nativity play isn't going to turn someone into a Christian, too much fuss is made of it.

I took my two to church and Sunday school at primary school age, they loved the whole Christmas atmosphere and the whole magical Christmas thing, with angels etc.

They were the ones that wanted to go, because they wanted to know what it was all about, so rather than explain I took them and they loved it.

When they wanted to stop going as they got older, it was ok.

No problems.

I now have two adults sons who are both atheist, the joining in and fun they had even going to church,at that early age didn't make them Christians.

So a few isolated nativity plays at a young age, isn't going to have a massive influence.

What does seem to have a bigger influence is if the parents force children to attend church when they don't want to go, and coax them into belief.

Its the home life, that does it IMO, not a random nativity play at Christmas.

Lots of parents who want a traditional nativity play in school don't do so because they believe in it, but because they enjoyed it when they were at school and they want their own child to experience it.

It's more of a tradition.

I think people take it far to seriously.

[Sassy]

Going by what I've heard Christians say, the attitude of their god towards his children when they misinterpret his mixed messages is "Fuck them - they disobeyed".

Picture a room full of children whose parents tell them to stay put in the room while they go out for a few hours leaving them unattended.  Upon their return, over 90% of those children have disobeyed their parents and have left the room to go and play on the dual carriageway.

When the parents get back, the kids are out there in the road, in terrible pain and suffering horrific injuries as the cars repeatedly hit them. 

You see, these kids are immortal and they cannot die.  They are destined to spend eternity in pain and agony as metal tears into flesh and bone.  Yet despite their screams, their supposedly loving parents say "Fuck them - it's their fault".

If you're a believer reading this and you find yourself in agreement that, it is, indeed, the kids fault, well...you're a different person to me.

I am a believer and think what a load of old rubbish. Glad I am not an atheist. I would never want to be held responsible for having written such a piece of garbage showing complete ignorance toward God, the bible and Christianity.
What a useless piece of writing. Nothing in it represents anything to with God, his love and his children.
What worries me is a person could write such junk and such utter hateful things in the first instance.

All false assumption and absolutely nothing by means of evidence.
What I would say it refrain from writing till you know what you are talking about.
 

[floo]

I am a believer and think what a load of old rubbish. Glad I am not an atheist. I would never want to be held responsible for having written such a piece of garbage showing complete ignorance toward God, the bible and Christianity.
What a useless piece of writing. Nothing in it represents anything to with God, his love and his children.
What worries me is a person could write such junk and such utter hateful things in the first instance.

All false assumption and absolutely nothing by means of evidence.
What I would say it refrain from writing till you know what you are talking about.
 

Oh Sass, you are HILARIOUS, many of us consider your offerings are garbage!

[Khatru]

For one thing, what mixed messages would those be, Khat?

Those that appear in the contradictions found throughout the Bible.  The ones that you often try to explain away as only being understandable to those who read the proper translation.

Question:  Are we judged by our faith? 

Answer: 

For by grace are ye saved through faith....not of works.

Ephesians 2:8,9

Or.....

And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Revelation 20:12

For a second, the Gospel story would seem to be more to do with 'OK, they stuffed up, so I'll give them a way to rebuild the relationship that they have broken' - somewhat the opposite of what you seem to want the message to be.

You're missing the point of my post which was that Christians will always blame mankind - even if their god tortures them for all eternity, it's always the fault of humans.

If you're a believer reading this and you find yourself in agreement that, it is, indeed, the kids fault, well...you're a different person to me.

What's telling is that not one believer has tackled the issue head-on and stated whether the parents or children are at fault.  No doubt they don't like what it is their beliefs are showing them up to be.

I suspect that not only do most believers not even accept your imitial premis, but then also acknowledge God's wish for damage caused by disobedience to be repairable.  Thankfully, most of us aren't like you - if I was, I think I might have done away with myself by now.

Your god wants to save people from himself? 

Tell me, how many will he end up saving in the long run?  Impossible to answer, I know.  Tell me this then.  How do the numbers of those that your god saves from himself stack up against those your god fails to save?

Not good is it?

Your god wants to save humanity from himself but what kind of omniscient, omnipotent deity can't even get what he wants?

Perhaps a deity that doesn't even exist.


If you're a believer reading this and you find yourself in agreement that, it is, indeed, the kids fault, well...you're a different person to me.

[Khatru]

Oh No, more manger danger cobblers.

Whoops!  Nearly missed this.

I'll just take this opportunity to say that "The War on Christmas" doesn't actually exist.

X'mas still means plenty to billions of people who don't buy into Jesus and the Christian ju-ju.  Yeah, I know, there are also plenty of people who happen to think that X'mas without Jesus is not X'mas.  Of course, they're out of touch .

There are even people who are so deeply entrenched in their mumbo jumbo that they can't even be altruistic without their Jesus fellow.  Of course, they're not just out of touch - they're dicks.

[Khatru]

Khat, it is hard to refute a post when it has so little content.  All it is is aimless and uneducated ramblings.  I had thought of using the adjective 'mendacious', but that would have implied a sense of purpose, which seems to be sadly lacking in many of your posts.

Say what you like, Hope but the fact remains that not one believer (I know there aren't many of you) has dared to face up to the point I raised.  That says it all really.

You are welkcome t choose Satan, but having seen the effects he has on people, I'd steer well clear of him.

Someone somewhere has tallied up all the deaths in the Bible that have been attributed to the Bible god.  Then they carried out the same exercise but this time they counted up all the deaths attributed to Satan.

Care to hazard a guess at how the body count figures stack up?

[Khatru]

I am a believer and think what a load of old rubbish. Glad I am not an atheist. I would never want to be held responsible for having written such a piece of garbage showing complete ignorance toward God, the bible and Christianity.
What a useless piece of writing. Nothing in it represents anything to with God, his love and his children.
What worries me is a person could write such junk and such utter hateful things in the first instance.

All false assumption and absolutely nothing by means of evidence.
What I would say it refrain from writing till you know what you are talking about.
 

Oh look!  Here's another believer who runs away from the issue.

[ippy]

Yes they are, because at primary school age they are hardly candidates,  especially if parents are non religious.

Having a nativity play isn't going to turn someone into a Christian, too much fuss is made of it.

I took my two to church and Sunday school at primary school age, they loved the whole Christmas atmosphere and the whole magical Christmas thing, with angels etc.

They were the ones that wanted to go, because they wanted to know what it was all about, so rather than explain I took them and they loved it.

When they wanted to stop going as they got older, it was ok.

No problems.

I now have two adults sons who are both atheist, the joining in and fun they had even going to church,at that early age didn't make them Christians.

So a few isolated nativity plays at a young age, isn't going to have a massive influence.

What does seem to have a bigger influence is if the parents force children to attend church when they don't want to go, and coax them into belief.

Its the home life, that does it IMO, not a random nativity play at Christmas.

Lots of parents who want a traditional nativity play in school don't do so because they believe in it, but because they enjoyed it when they were at school and they want their own child to experience it.

It's more of a tradition.

I think people take it far to seriously.

Of course you're right Rose no really sophisticated religious organisation would even consider such a thing as gently drawing in new candidates in any way they can, or develop various ways doing so by trial and error probably over the last couple of thousand years, I must be one of those conspiracy theorists, after all nativity plays are only a bit of fun for the children of the next generation.   

As you can see I didn't even hint nativity on it's own.

My two boys are not atheists, they don't even consider meaningless beliefs, they just have no place in their lives for them, what would they need religion for or have any use for it anyway?

I didn't withdraw my children from any school areas when they were there, the youngest one was pressured to go and wave a flag at Betty when she was opening something at Liverpool St station, London, he said that he didn't want to go, my wife spoke to the teacher about it and he didn't go and that was about the only bit where we didn't actually withdraw him from flag waving, we only backed him up.

ippy

 

 

[Hope]

Oh for crying out loud Hope, my opinion is NOTHING to do with my upbringing, but the reading of the Bible, which I continue to do! It was when I actually read that book from cover to cover, and not the selected verses from my childhood that I realised much of it was a fairy story with no credibility.

Yet you still seem to reference certain passages that scholars and believers have long believed to be theological or poetic - oe whatever - as if they are historical.  I would suggest that this pattern of interpretation has a great deal to do with your childhood upbringing.

[Hope]

Say what you like, Hope but the fact remains that not one believer (I know there aren't many of you) has dared to face up to the point I raised.  That says it all really.

And that point would be ...? 

Someone somewhere has tallied up all the deaths in the Bible that have been attributed to the Bible god.  Then they carried out the same exercise but this time they counted up all the deaths attributed to Satan.

Care to hazard a guess at how the body count figures stack up?

Not sure; last time I heard this kind of stat. being quoted (which was probably 30 or 40 years ago) it was somewhere in the region of 1000 to 1 (Satan : God)

[floo]

Yet you still seem to reference certain passages that scholars and believers have long believed to be theological or poetic - oe whatever - as if they are historical.  I would suggest that this pattern of interpretation has a great deal to do with your childhood upbringing.

You can suggest what you like, but  we will have to agree to differ!

[Bubbles]

Of course you're right Rose no really sophisticated religious organisation would even consider such a thing as gently drawing in new candidates in any way they can, or develop various ways doing so by trial and error probably over the last couple of thousand years, I must be one of those conspiracy theorists, after all nativity plays are only a bit of fun for the children of the next generation.   

As you can see I didn't even hint nativity on it's own.

My two boys are not atheists, they don't even consider meaningless beliefs, they just have no place in their lives for them, what would they need religion for or have any use for it anyway?

I didn't withdraw my children from any school areas when they were there, the youngest one was pressured to go and wave a flag at Betty when she was opening something at Liverpool St station, London, he said that he didn't want to go, my wife spoke to the teacher about it and he didn't go and that was about the only bit where we didn't actually withdraw him from flag waving, we only backed him up.

ippy

I think gently trying to draw in new candidates isn't working, and hasn't for quite a while.

I'm not going to be concerned about the odd nativity play.

How do you know your boys haven't even considered what you consider meaningless beliefs?

Mine just rejected them, probably because some Christians can behave a bit strangely sometimes, which doesn't help their case.